Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire 2nd degree murder charge, justified

While I do appreciate the fact that you are neither pro, nor anti, LEO your beliefs about what will happen to you when you shoot people are in error.

Well, you get what I was meaning.

I see no reason to charge one party with the reckless behavior of another in this incident. A bit of an over reach.

Son, your'e not cut out to be a malcontent. But if you emulate something, you will become it. Is that what you really want? Unlike some others here, I think more of you than that.

We had a new law put into effect here in NYS .



From:

http://www.odmp.org/officer/18292-trooper-craig-j.-todeschini

This sage quote on special privelege brought to you by a young man who has a child but still lives with his parents, or is it the baby mamas parent?

The leo in question was discharaging a duty of his office that he was sworn to uphold, not exercising any special privilege.

How is he above the law in this situation?

Like minorities and illegal immigrants?

Silly.

This is not to argue for over-reaching law enforcement.

BUT, the cop was just doing his job here. I mean what is he supposed to do when a call comes through the radio that there's a high-speed pursuit in the area with bags of pot flying out the window, if not to hustle over there and help out?!!

Change the scenario, OK? Say your house is being robbed by armed intruders while you're at work, your wife and kids are home alone, and they call the cops.

How would you feel if the police department replied: "Ma'am, we'll come as fast as we can, but we'll have to obey all traffic laws and not exceed the speed limit on the way over, so have patience. Hopefully we won't catch too many red lights!"

Seriously, is THAT how you'd want the cops to operate?

On the other hand, say the cops follow SOP and hustle over to your house in an effort to save your wife and kids from being harmed ( and to catch the bad guys so they don't do it again), and on the way over, one of them loses control and kills a pedestrian.

Who should the pedestrian's family hold accountable? The pedestrian? Your family (after all, they called the cops)? The cops? Or the armed robbers?

Explain to me why ANYBODY but the armed intruders, the ones who CAUSED the entire incident, should be the ones held responsible.

The way I see it, it isn't feasible nor do we want emergency responders to be unable to hustle over, sirens blaring, when called. That, of course, means extra risks will be taken, and sometimes, bad stuff will happen. When bad stuffs happens because emergency responders wreck, society has to determine who to hold accountable. Who should be held responsible for those increased risks and their results?

In my opinion, fault CLEARLY lies with the criminal who set the ball rolling.

Now, if a cop uses his squad car, sirens and lights to circumvent traffic so he can hit his favorite donut shop before it closes, and he wrecks and kills himself or someone else, THAT's a different story. But this guy was doing his job ... chasing bad guys. And he got killed.

Bad guy's fault, from where I sit. He gets what he deserves.

Rick, could not agree more, excellent post.

That is why the law in NC states that if somebody dies in the commission of a felony, the person committing the felony can be charged for 1st degree murder.

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That's interesting, i'ld of figured that NYS already had a fleeing law on the books.

That one kinda hit home with us. Wife and I know a more senior officer that had specifically made the point of saying to that young Trooper that driving the Tahoe was not the same as driving the typical cruiser. Hindsight is tough when you have to look back and wish you had made your point even more clear .

The officer was acting pursuant to his oath of office, I.E. he was assisting in a pursuit of a felon. The law this thread deals with is similar to many laws in all the states. This officer was by all means on duty and responding to an emergency situation. Police are trained to drive at high speeds. the real standard of proof here is would that officer have died if the suspect had not attempted to evade the initial officer's vehicle stop? Police are charged with protecting ALL of us, and are willing to put there life on the line to save yours.

Simply put, being a cop is a job just like any other job. A cop's job is catching bad guys. No different than my job is loading trucks and moving freight. A cop is paid to catch a bad guy and if he/she gets killed in the process, how is it anyone else's fault who wasn't directly involved with it? That would be like me doing my job and I fell off the loading dock and broke my neck and died. Would that be the fault of the consumer who's product I was loading? No!

You are wrong sir. being a cop is NOT like any other job. Are you responsible for 7,000 lives? are you going to be held civilly if not criminally liable for NOT responding to a "man with a gun" call? You are a private citizen you have a choice to retreat in face of danger, sometimes you even have the duty to retreat in the face of that danger. Law enforcement does not have that luxury. We HAVE to respond.

As for who would be held liable in your example. Did you fall and break your neck because someone left a piece of pipe on the dock floor, or was there ice on the floor that a maintenance person did not get cleared up. You get the Idea. It is the same scenario as this unfortunate officer. Had he not been enroute to assist in the pursuit of a felon he would not have wrecked and been killed. There fore under NY law that suspect is guilty of second degree murder. just as if someone had left ice or a piece of pipe on your loading dock floor, and you had fell and broke your neck and died they too would be held liable. It is as simple as that.
Another example is the "felony murder" statute which ups the charge of second degree murder to first degree when the murder was committed in conjunction with a felonious crime.

Does a cop get a paycheck or do they work for free? If they get a paycheck then it IS a job.

As for my example, I fell due to my own stupidity and being clumsy in spite of me being trained to do the job. Same with the cop. He was trained to deal with high speed pursuits and he screwed up on his own part. He mishandled his car and killed himself. I understand he HAD to respond, but it's his own fault he wrecked when he had training to begin with. If blaming the criminal he was after is the case why stop there? Why not blame the civil service workers who laid out the asphalt on the road. How about us tax payers who pay money for those workers to build the road. How about gas companies who sell fuel to power the Police cruiser? See where I'm going with this?

no I really don't see where you are going. First off you contradict yourself. In your first post you stated "A cop is paid to catch a bad guy and if he/she gets killed in the process, how is it anyone else's fault who wasn't directly involved with it?" the suspect being chased is directly involved with the incident as he is the person who was at fault for the chase being initiated. It is the rest of the people you mention, the road workers, tax payers etc. that are not directly responsible therefore they are not liable. The bottom line is he would not have wrecked had he not been involved in the pursuit that was started when the suspect failed to stop for the initial vehicle stop. the officer was involved in a legitimate part of his duty.

Your way of thinking seems to insinuate that the store clerk who gets killed in a robbery is at fault for being killed because he let the robber in the store. Now that doesn't make sense does it?

What if the guy had a scanner and knew Hemorrhoid1960 had taken up the chase? Can any of you say you would be willing to have him apprehend you?

Was is or was it not the cop's error that got him killed? Did the suspect run him off the road? Did he shoot out his tires? Did he jump from his vehicle and enter the cop's car and take control of the wheel and make the cops crash? NO, the cop killed himself on his own.

As for the store clerk scenario, my eyebrows are quite raised there. Totally different thing there. Te robber is the killer not the clerk. The clerk didn't kill himself and then blame the robber.

Maser-You started off on this thread by using a qualifying statement, “I'm neither pro-LEO or anti-LEO”. If that were true you wouldn’t feel the need to write it. Instead you would let the content of your posts show it. It is readily apparent you are, at least a little, anti-LEO. That’s your prerogative. Using the “what if’s” or “how about this” statements is counter productive. We could all go back and forth with those for days on end. If you kept your argument to the facts at hand things would not be as cloudy as they are for you. How “directly involved” does the suspect need to be to qualify as liable for the officer’s death in your view? It seems to me you have never had a great deal of responsibility placed on your shoulders. If you have you might be able to see the officer wasn’t speeding because he got paid by the mile. He was doing his duty. Being a cop is a job. It’s also more than that. Cops aren’t above the law. Cops are held to a higher standard. The media and movies aren’t the best place to gain knowledge on a subject. You should do a ride along and find out for yourself what it is like. It is usually best to learn first hand. Nobody wants to be a dumb azz for ever. And yes I am a cop.

Andy