Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only double rifles?

I just had a talk today with one of the nations top gunbuilders - who has plenty of experience with doubles - and one of his comments was that doubles are a "tinker's delight" with two different barrels - each one often giving different velocities with the same ammo - trying to shoot into one group.

I often have enough trouble getting one barrel to group.

I hear that.

But I understand they are designed (originally) to hit a football at 25 yards offhand--That is the size of the elephant brain.

Could be wrong,

BMT

In my somewhat limited experience with the Russian ones- only on two different ones. One the rifle barrel shot so incredibly high we never got it to come down to be able to use scope. It also @ 40 yards was about 2 feet higher than the shotgun barrel, the other (a double rifle) the barrels weren't close to the same point of impact. Honestly they felt like clubs, the workmanship was rough. I have no idea if the newer ones have addressed this or not. But in the end both owners of the two wished they had simply spent a couple of hundred more and got a used anything else. Just my .02
Guns America, gunbroker, or even here in the "wanted" section.

I saw a BRNO ZH-344? I think it was, dont know much about them, but they were "lower" buck as I recall.
Personally I always wanted a superposed 22 mag on baby frame.

I do not own a double rifle. I can appreciate the rapid second shot capabilities usefulness in the scenario of dangerous game hunting in the thick jess. I will continue to use my magazine rifles to good effect because that is what I am most familiar. BUT I must say that when I first handled a friends 470 NE double that was made a best british maker, the nostalgia was palpable as was the sense that here in my hands was a highly refined tool that was also art. My friend sold the rifle later in favor of a DArcy Echols custom because of his inability to shoot it accurately due to eyesight issues.

workmanship is everything - and that's what you're paying for.

A decent double should be able to group under 6" at 100 yards with open sights and proper loads.
Most big bores are regulated at 50-70 meters, and here should group 2-3" at most.

here is a 50yd target of my 70meter regulated 470 (off sticks):




and here is a stack of targets offhand from 50,70,100 and 100 yards.

That's some good shooting. My targets don't look quite that good so hopefully you'll understand me not posting them.

I was reading a CZ-USA catalog yesterday. In it was an over & under double barrel rifle in 458WinMag with an MSRP of around $5K

if you want to learn about doubles and study the market, the best resource is Double Gun Journal. it's your money, but a low end double is kind of a contradiction in terms.

here's mine....a 1914 vintage Watson Bros. .450/.400 3 1/4 in. It'll put pairs in an inch and a half at fifty yards, but I usually shoot pairs of half gallon milk jugs offhand..now THAT is fun.

I just bought a Heym .450/.400 last week . I will post pics when it comes in.

I purchased a new Chapuis last year in 9,3x74R. Makes a fine moose rifle and is capable of shooting anything in NA and almost everything in Africa where it is a legal caliber. It is very accurate and will shoot groups no larger than 1.5 inches at 50 yards shooting each barrel by holding the rifle and resting only my elbows on the bench. The guys over at the AR forum have there own double rifle section and are very helpful.
Unless you are very talented with working on doubles I would avoid the Remingtons. Heard many bad stories about getting them to shoot correctly out of the box.

Thought I'd give my two cents. I have one of the Rem/Baikal 45/70 side by sides and really like it. No, it's not a high quality gun. (If I could afford one I would buy one.) And, it's only rated for 31,000 psi so you can't load it up with some of the really stiff loads.(And no, I'm not one of the people who think the 45/70 is a dangerous game cartridge.) But,it functions well and the barrels regulate just like they are supposed to. I'm getting 2" groups combined both barrels at 50 yds.
I have to disagree with those who say the double is ONLY for a quick second shot on dangerous African game, and those who say to stay away from the Baikal/Rem, and those who say a double 45/70 is useless. In hunting situations of 100yds or so, it should be a real killer on most any North American game, except maybe the big bears. And, there is A LOT of hunting out there where 100yds is as long as you are going to shoot.
IMHO if you are like me and have always just wanted a double then don't shy away from this one, if you can still find one. They blew off the shelves as fast as the gun shops could get them.

Mssgn, there is a double rifle on Gunbroker.com, about page 9 I think, that is a shotgun conversion. I don't know a lot about doubles but I know these were done. It is in 450 #2 which is a big but low pressure case which I assume is why it was chosen (a 450-grain bullet at ~ 2150 fps). It is a modest looking but well kept looking gun and he's asking about $4500; whether he'll get that is another question. The bid right now is just over 3k

Yea, they seem to potentially provide a quagmire of problems in reverse proportion to price; yet, as much as I like sxs bird guns, I sure would like to carry a medium caliber double after moose.

Utahlefty, what did you not like about the Blasers?

It isn't necessary to dump a ton of money into a double, if you keep your eyes open and don't insist on a Britihs big-bore. I own two double rifles at the moment, a pre-WWII German SxS in 9.3x74R from Thieme-Schlegelmilch, a pretty well-known firm that like many others went under during the war. It weighs eight pounds and easily regulated with 286's (Nosler Partitions and Woodliegh Solids) at 60 meters and H4350. It will shoot two pairs into under 2" all day at that range with iron sights. Luckily it also shoots 270 Speers to the same place so practice can be cheaper!

It had bases for an unknown mounts, but I was able to file away on a set of Talleys and make them fit. Sometimes I shoot it with a scope, but mostly with irons--including the flip-up tang sight that is hinged into the pistol grip.

My other double is a .30-40 Krag built on a Ruger Red Label 20-gauge shotgun. The shotgun barrels came along with it. Dunno who the maker was--and neither did the friend I got it from. O/U doubles are normally easier to regulate and work up loads for, but this one is just coming around after almost two years of off-and-on experimetation. It came with a set of scope rings that are quite low, and I normally shoot it with a scope (a K3 Weaver).

In neither case was a fortune necessary, though with the German SxS I was in the right place at the right time. Both are a lot of fun, and a lot more applicable to North American hunting than an over-.40 British rifle. I have fooled with those too, and they are a lot of fun but really specialized.

The 9.3x74R seems a nice, moderately powered cartridge for a double (apparently why everybody who makes doubles chambers it) for what one would use it for in NA at say, 150 yds. and under. Most in this chambering are lighter too; at least, the ones I've looked at.

GN - about the Blaser:

There were a couple things I just couldn't get past.

The biggest issue was the cocking safety (more or less the same as the Kreighoff). Some people seem to be able to adjust to it - but I'm apparently not one of them.

Also, I couldn't get used to the idea of the "weatherstripping" between the barrels (a covering to hide the jack-screw). It just seemed wrong.

Finally, they're not "fitted" but off-the-shelf. I shot both a right hand stock left handed (I DO NOT recommend you try this yourself) and a left hand stock. This was much better but still not the same as having a fitted stock.

The price at the time was within $3,000 of the Heym and the Blaser was downright clubby in comparison, the above concerns notwithstanding. It was an easy decision (for me).

JB, I spoke with a 'smith and a machinist yesterday about converting a SXS 12 gauge to a double. The 45-70 seemed to be the logigal choice to the smith due to lower pressures. The shotgun in question was a run of the mill SXS without a sidelock, just the top or centre lock. A new set of extractors would have to made or the old ones modified. The machinist, a hell of guy btw, stated it wouldn't take a lot of time, nor effort to machine full length inserts (barrels) to slide in the existing barrels, as long as the chokes were gone. Regulating would be imposible, but it would be a reasonable 100 yard rifle. Have you heard of this being done before? For the money, a fella may be able to get into a double for a resonable price?

R.

I suspect the inserts would make the shotgun very muzzle heavy, and add a lot of weight in general. Without regulation, I'm not sure it would be accurate enough for 100 yards. Before you do this, why not just leave it as is and try rifled slugs in it?

I have not handled one but I have heard of it being done and even knew a smith who had done several.

Every double rifle I have hunted with has shot under 2.5 inches and most all of them would shoot an inch...I promptly sold every one of them that didn't..

I wouldn't own an iron sighted rifle that would not shoot at least 1.5 inches at 50 yards and one inch suits me better..I might want to shoot something mean between the eyes or in the eye..

I have found the Searcys to be the most accurate doubles that I have ever shot along with a few Army/Navy and Jefferys English doubles that shot extremely well if you tinkered with them.

Sometimes I don't think folks know how to make a double shoot, testing reloads is the way, but you must find the right load that emcompasses accuracy and regulation and therein lies the difficulty but it can be done if your determined, and get rid of all those old wives tales you read about..

Such tripe as you must shoot the front trigger first, and never use IMR-4831 in an English gun or don't shoot monolithics in a double and on and on..I have challanged each and every one of these tales and they just hold no water.