Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Being on strike sucks,butthis is worse!

I give up there is no getting the truth out of you since you change postion with the changing wind direction. tom

AJ,
I guess a little reading between the lines is necessary here.

It sounds like you have enough skills in a field that has a certain demand, though I'm not familiar enough with the market to understand where they would be used?

So, with your skills, why are you wasting your time with strikes and BS (and bitching about it on this forum?). Why don't you pull up stakes and find a place without all the nonsense. There must be some employer with the need for your skills and the pay to make you smile?

And, while I think I understand what you were trying to say- don't lump me in with your plant electricians, plumbers, etc.... Those guys couldn't find my jockstrap if I left it on the floor of the lunch room near the donuts. My license is pretty much unlimited- from phone lines to Utility overhead high voltage, and everything in between. Good training and hard work can go a long way, agreed?
So, what was this thread about again? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AJ

I was through with this thread but am compelled to respond to this statement. I will start by saying I freely admit I don�t have the skills you possess relative to your expertise in machining. May I ask what leads you to believe you are qualified in mine as a professional engineer? Would you care to back up your assertion from the above quote?

How about a hypothetical? I need a pump. This pump will be part of a portable skid mounted separations system used in crude oil/natural gas exploration. It must be sized to handle 200 gallons/minute raw crude flow. Will be used in various environments from a semi-submersible drill rig in the Gulf of Mexico to a trucked unit in California to a work boat off of Nova Scotia Canada to a fixed platform in the Norwegian sector of the North Sea. Tell me, what type pump would you specify? Vertical turbine? Horizontal split case? Other? Based on what I�ve told you what horsepower electrical driver (motor) would you select? (Have I given you enough info? (hint:NO!) If not tell me what you need) Should the internals be 304? Incolnel? (Based on what I�ve told you should you be able to decide? (Hint:YES)) This driver, what design standards must it meet to be certified for operation in the locales I�ve specified � ASME, IEEE, CSA, BS, NORSOK? What standard will rule for stress evaluations on the pump base plate and piping seeing as it will be used both on land in a California Zone 4 seismic area and offshore on a ship, let�s say the ship will meet at most 20 foot waves of 8 second duration�Title 24, CCG? What about cooling? Looks like it will be either fresh or seawater�what material do you suggest here to inhibit corrosion? Will I need an isolation spool between this material and the piping systems in the rest of the skid? How about cathodic protection? The welding on the mounting base for the pump, what code would you specify to ensure it will be approved in all of the area of operation�AWS, ASME, CWB, other? What kind of seals would you specify based on conditions in the various operating areas? Etc�etc�etc�.etc�etc��..to the final condition�.. As alluded to by Matthias above, I need you once you�ve designed this pump to affix your stamp and certify that you will be fully responsible for any errors and omissions to the design and in the event of any failure you will stand up to any production shortfalls, lost revenues, and in the worst case any plant damages or loss of life.

This scenario is an every day one for a qualified mechanical engineer, whose training you claim to have so let�s play�. answer the questions you can from the above, tell me what further information you need to answer the rest, qualify your design parameters, and estimate the value, i.e. your fee/charge out price for the final design including carrying the consequential damages for production shortfall/injury/loss of life��..

hey journeyman,

i don't mean to change the course of the discussion underway, but i'm curious as to exactly what the different welding certs indicate... even the engineers that i work around are very vague on the subject... i can't tell if they don't know, or just don't want to discuss it

the only ones that i see on a regular basis are asme 3, 8, &9... the aws codes are seldom used but it seems that i recall a D1.1 .....

i seldom see an actual cert. paper... i typically show up on a job and either go to work, if they have certs for me on file, or, i will be sent to a test booth and then to work.... when i do see a test paper it will give process info, base metal and filler info, smallest diameter certified to, and weld thickness allowed per process.....

if it aint' too much trouble could you enlighten me on these standards??? thanks,..... john w

p.s. as a humorous (?) aside, i recently showed up on a job where their database showed valid certs for me..... 10 days into the job i got called to the weld techs office where i was informed that they not only did not have certs, for me, on the job that i was on, they had no papers on me at all !!! a test ensued at once, and a lot of people held their breath awaiting the results..... the test was good and all shots of welds performed before the test were good, so all ended well..... it was a stark reminder though, that the information highway has it's wrecks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LMAO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Great post

Unions can provide value to consumers in some cases so I am not against them all. I have seen this "value" in the electrical trade as apprenticeship really matters here. My beef is with groups like the HAW. They want me to support their cause for better wages, better pay or better working condition. The want me to pay a premium for my auto for their standard of living or job security. So what does this cost me, an extra 5% or maybe more? For autos, the union fee could cost me thousands. Nobody is subsidizing me for job security, either I produce or find another place to work, period. Regarding strikes, if a fellow does not like his compensation package, he can work somewhere else, I bet there is another chap waiting to take his place. This is simply the economics of supply and demand. To the union guys here, don't jump on my case, I do see value in some cases for unions as I mentioned but it is on a case by case basis.

don't leave mad 8Ball,

hell, stick around and slug it out.... i gotta warn you, though, i post based on first hand knowledge and experience..... the points that you have tried to make here lead me to believe that you do not.....

i confess that it's a contract company which pays my wage... if thats of any value to you... my relationship with said company, though, ends utterly at the completion of a given job..... they cut a check and i'm down the road

the union, on the other hand, organizes training, keeps training records, and work histories which it uses internally to place workers... they collect pension and insurance money from members wages, which they invest and allocate to the benefit of all

Most of all though, the union stands together when injustice is offered...

i've told before about how a truck driver wanted to start an arguement on a job site... he was in an extremely hazardous spot (standing under a load suspended from a crane, with the wind getting it pretty good).... he was asked repeatedly to move, but he refused.... i moved him, put him in the cab of his truck ,and directed him to the office trailer... well, he went to the trailer all right,... told them he was attacked for no reason, and demanded that something be done...
the super general foreman of the job was called to the trailer and informed that the home office in sacramento had determined that i should be terminated. the job was here in illinois...
the superGF had the union steward investigate, and report back to him... upon learning the facts he returned to the office trailer, and told the site superintendant;

a) that he would fire me if directed to do so..
b) that he would get his stuff together and leave with me
c) that given the circumstances, he expected the entire crew would follow us out the gate if they didn't beat us to it... (280 men)

i went back to work and worked the job to completion... i did so with a lot of respect for a superGF with over 30 yrs in the boilermakers who stood up for a guy who only months before had been an out of work steelworker with his hat in his hand...

Big Stick would have picked up the red phone and taken the matter in his own hands... in my trade though it's unusual to see the person who hires you, and unheard of to meet or speak with the company person who would fire you... there aint' no red phone, or even a phone # to call..... baaaaa..... johnw

jw, against my better judgement(or lack of) I have one more parting thought. Why are you so defensive? In trying to remain objective, I deliberately left out the dark side of the BS which I have personally endured at the hands of the union. I started my career at 16, unwittingly being hired 2 weeks prior to a strike which lasted 2 years and resulted in the union being voted out. Many of the strikers were friends of mine and we hung out together on a regular basis. They made me aware of the tactics which they were encouraged to use during the strike (follow deliveries and harass customers, shoot out windows in the facilities, slash our truck tires, to mention a few). I could count on picking roofing nails up out of our parking lots and premises at least once a week. Our phone lines were cut repeatedly. I was personally abused and called a scab when I didn't even know what it was. There was a pack mentality among SOME of the strikers which manifested itself as a big mouth and tough SOB's in a group, but alone they were mealy mouth CS's. Many of these guys were worthless POS's and would have never held a job but for the union. Now I have to concede, for lack of experience, that this may be an isolated occurrence, but it gave me a poor taste for the union from the get go. As I said, it lasted 2 years and cost a lot of workers a lot of money, and many their jobs. The company did fine without them. Who the hell was benefitted by the union in that case? None of their members, near as I could tell. A lot of them got hurt, but the union rep's got to go home to dinner every night and slept well, knowing that their future was secure. Once again, they were the only winners.

All I can address first hand is this particular union, but in my experience, they encourage, even reward, mediocracy.
It bothers me, as a man, when anyone, particularly a guy with a family, doesn't strive for the highest achievement available to him. This doesn't necessarily mean $$, but a level of satisfaction as well. Some of the guys I mentioned earlier were too worried about what would happen if they weren't union, and not concerned enough about what could be if they weren't hiding behind the organized muscle and bully tactics of their representation.

If you feel the need to attack me personally again, have at it; I've got big shoulders, and you wouldn't be the first. I do speak from first hand experience, and I actually somehow managed to achieve a decent position, which I enjoy thoroughly, and decent income, without union representation.
I have never been out of work unless it was my own decision. Hopefully you can agree to disagree with me and we can move on.

I have been following this from the beginning.

To all of you anti union people out there I say this, If the unions have done nothing for you then give back all the health care insurance, and go back to earning $1.00/hour and working 20 hours a day with out getting time and a half. Oh yes all those gaurds on the equipment you run take off you don't need any saftey equipment, there are 10 more people out there to take your job when you loose an arm or get your skull crack open.

With every ones attitude all for me and screw every one else this whole thing is going down the drain. It is this attitude that is causing jobs to go offshore. The CEO's are showing this and they are convincing the ave. worker of the same. As individuals we will be crushed, as a united group we will be recconized. Our whole system is about groups, look at what happened with Clinton, he went about impossing gun control, so every one of us joined the NRA as a group to hold on to what we had. It is the same with jobs, as individuals we are crushed, as a group we must be delt with. I am not saying that every thing the unions do is good but they are doing a lot more good for the worker in this country than any other group. You don't think our goverment is going to help us do you? Who is standing up for the little guy? There are people that are very content to put parts together every day, that is there talent. Others are engineers, tool makers, plumbers, etc.. but every one has the ability to work. What is going on today is that these jobs are going away across the ponds and not coming back. We need to stand together and do something about this before it is to late, or else the next Iraq we will have to get our guns and tanks from China. Good luck! If things continue at the present pace no one will be earnning enough money put to food on the table much less a roof over our heads. The price of goods continuess to increase but my pay check is the same as in 98. Yes I have taken cuts, as I am not in a union. Has it helped? NO!!! The jobs are still going to China, or Mexico, or where ever.

As a Tooling Engineer I know that some of this work can be done cheeper here. For instance 4 jobs were just sent to China, when 2 of them were bid $6,000.00 less by tool shops in the USA. But some one high up insists they all go to China. Explain this to me, where is the logic? This doesn't take in to account the quality of the tools we will get. We are setting our people up to fail with inferior tooling. Of course they can't make good product with junk tools.

So you all keep on being one for your self and screw the rest. Cause sooner or later it is going to bit you in the ass. What goes around comes around, and it is coming a lot sooner than you think.

I'd submit,that at the time of $1.00 an hour wages and the 20 hour day,there were skilled folks making more than that in lesser hours.

So there is nothing to go 'round,because nothing is gonna come 'round.

What WILL change,is high wages for nuttlicking dog-dick jobs,that are of very modest skills. Such nonsense,will/largely has,priced itself outta the market.

The guys who make the better wages,on the shorter shifts,have noone to thank,but themselves,for the required foresight.

A guy makes his own luck and the reality of it is starting to set in...................

johnw,



No trouble at all as long as you and the others don�t mind what will probably be the most boring post in Campfire history. I�d like to preface a couple of things though. First, I�ll apologize in advance for the writing style which I�m sure will come off as professorial or condescending. 99% of the writing I do is professional or technical related and I find in reading my posts here that style often doesn�t translate well. I�m going to plagiarize some of this from ASME and other publications as well for expediency. Secondly, I�ll start with the basics in case for some bizarre reason another member with a masochistic streak decides to suffer through it. I know you are a professional welder but others aren�t so don�t take the simplicity as an insult to your intelligence. (In other words don�t call me a jackazz, and my wife will certify to the fact that I�m faaaaaaar from qualified enough in the manhood department to go f#%k myself <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) So, in very basic Reader�s Digest Abridged format�..





To start, a bit on standards. A standard can be defined as a set of technical definitions and guidelines, �how to� instructions for designers, manufacturers and users. Standards promote safety, reliability, productivity and efficiency in almost every industry that relies on engineering components or equipment. Standards can run from a few paragraphs to hundreds of pages, and are written by experts with knowledge and expertise in a particular field who sit on many committees. Standards are considered voluntary because they serve as guidelines, but do not of themselves have the force of law. Standards are a vehicle of communication for producers and users. They serve as a common language, defining quality and establishing safety criteria. Costs are lower if procedures are standardized; training is also simplified. Perhaps most importantly to many, standards promote commonality or interchangeability of commodities within a trade region.



There are over 50,000 voluntary standards commonly used in the US covering every facet of manufacturing and construction from design parameters to fabrication, quality testing, marking, labeling and certification. To coordinate all of these standards we have the American National Standards Institute. ANSI is a federation of corporations, standards developers, academics, government agencies and consumers who offer accreditations, training programs and other education and most germane to this discussion a mechanism whereby certain standards may be recognized as THE American National Standard for industry. For government, from local through state, regional and federal the National Institute of Standards and Technology performs this coordinating function. As stated earlier standards of themselves are voluntary. They become mandatory when through regulation they have been promulgated into law. A code is a standard that has been adopted by one or more governmental bodies and has the force of law. A specification is a document prepared by an engineer incorporating regulations, codes and standards for a given project or scope of work.



The ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code then is a set of standards developed and maintained by a professional organization, the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, which through regulation is now adopted in part or in its entirety, by 49 states and numerous municipalities and territories of the United States and all the provinces of Canada. establishing the rules of safety for the design, fabrication, and inspection of boilers and pressure vessels, and nuclear power plant components.



The Boiler Code is made of 12 sections and contains over 15 divisions and subsections:



I. Power Boilers

II. Materials

Part A-Ferrous Material Specifications

Part B-Non-Ferrous Material Specifications

Part C-Specifications for Welding Rods, Electrodes, and Filler Metals

Part D-Properties (Customary)

New! Part D-Properties (Metric)

III. Rules for Construction of Nuclear Facility Components

Subsection NCA - General Requirements for Divisions 1 and 2

DIVISION 1 Subsection NB- Class 1 Components

DIVISION 2 Code for Concrete Containments

DIVISION 3 Containments for Transportation and Storage

IV. Heating Boilers

V. Nondestructive Examination

VI. Recommended Rules for the Care and Operation of Heating Boilers

VII. Recommended Guidelines for the Care of Power Boilers

VIII. Pressure Vessels

DIVISION 1

DIVISION 2 - Alternative Rules

DIVISION 3 - Alternative Rules for Construction of High Pressure Vessels

IX. Welding and Brazing Qualifications

X. Fiber-Reinforced Plastic Pressure Vessels

XI. Rules for Inservice Inspection of Nuclear Power Plant Components

XII. Rules for Construction and Continued Service of Transport Tanks





Companies desiring to perform work covered by the code must be accredited and certified to the applicable sections and must develop and maintain audited programs as a means of proving their compliance and are issued code symbol stamps by ASME as an indication of their conformity to the latest edition of the code. So, when for instance you hire out to work on a Heat Recovery Steam Generator on a gas turbine power plant the various work required for assembly such as the frame, skin, tube bundles, steam drums and piping mean the contractor must be certified to Sections I and II and carry an �A� stamp, Section V and a �P� stamp and section VIII and a �U� stamp. Each of these sections reference Section IX for welding. Section IX contains rules relating to the qualification of welding and brazing procedures as required by other code sections including essential and nonessential variables specific to the welding or brazing process used. It also covers rules relating to the qualification and requalification of welders, brazers, and welding and brazing operators in order that they may perform welding or brazing as required by other code sections.



So that�s really it in a nutshell. As you can see Section III which you mentioned is the same as the HRSG power plant scenario except for nukie work. AWS which you also mentioned is simply another standards organization and their Code D1.1 Structural Welding Code � Steel is the national standard for structural welding, so while you�re working on the boiler under ASME your ironworker buds are putting up structures, racks, stair towers, handrails etc under AWS�



I hope this is what you were looking for. I apologize to the rest of you for the diversion and we'll now rejoin our regularly scheduled program already in progress.....

sauerball,
while unions had their uses in the past that is no longer the case. There are laws now to protect the worker. And yes before you beat the dead horse I know that unions had something to do with that. The point I ma trying to make badly I am sure is that the unions are living on past glory. You are now your own worst enemy. If you don�t believe me go back and read some of your brothers comments. For example talking about taking someone out behind the woodshed to adjust their attitude. tom

8Ball,



My apology to you... No attack was intended... i think that your views are wrong, but i have good friends who think that i am just as wrong... Boy, are they ever misguided...

the tactics that you say these strikers used were in fact criminal acts, and should have been dealt with as such... i know that such things have happened...

i also recognize that lawful, peaaceful picketers have been shot, hung, and burned out of their homes by company muscle...

neither scenario outlined above typifies labor relations today.....

it's been said here that unions are forcing manufacturors to take their work abroad.....

statistically, right to work states are losing jobs overseas on an equal basis with union states...

it's all about the dollar today and a profit can be seen as a loss if someone else profits bigger... fiscal gamesmanship is the biggest threat to our way of life... it used to be that a conservative was such both fiscally and morally, in most cases... today a fiscal conservative need not hold to morally conservative values..... john w

thanks journeyman,

WOW!!!
i think that it's safe to say that the engineers that i work around just didn't feel like discussing the matter...

i know that i certainly had no idea what i was asking for, although your answer did enlighten me in a couple of ways... i think???

Sheister, now your comming across as a totla a**. How in the f&ck do you know what gear these guys work on over here? Next time they need to go into a substation we'll send you in first, without gearing up. If you don't know what your talking about, best bet is to keep silent!!!!!! You look kinda funny with that jockstrap hanging of your dumb nose.

johnw; it's obvious that our views will remain polarized, but I can live with that. We're all after the same thing, after all, and how we get there isn't always as important as the fact that we DO get there. Truce?
We should get back to something prudent, like the
270 vs:30-06 debate... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

270 can't even hold 30-06's hat in a fight! Phftttt..............

Terry I am with you on that one who needs or wants a 270. lol. tom

What a bunch of BS. "There are laws now to protect the worker". Yeah, great laws, just ask all the employees at Enron who lost their retirement about how wonderful these laws are.

Look overseas and see how well big business treats it's workers in poor countries. The company I work for pays the laborers in Brazil $12.00 a day. No, they wouldn't exploit people today if they could.

The laws are changed at the whim of big business. Just look at Bush's latest gift to big business, the elimination of overtime for 1000's of workers. What a wonderful law.

Look at the weakened OSHA laws, done courtesy of the Bush administration. The laws are changed at the request of big business that contributes huge sums of money to Bush.

Business has a terrible track record of abuse throughout history, and to say that there are laws now that would stop these abuses is ludicrous. The laws are nothing if not stringently enforced. It's estimated that for OSHA to inspect every business in the US would take 84 years at the current staffing level. Great enforcement of existing laws.

And yet another person gopes on ignore.



BTW you union guys would be so much better off if you let johnw handle your debating.