24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,679
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,679
Gentlemen,
Terry is about as fair a man as you can come by. Take the time to read what he said below....

Regards, Matt Garrett
757-581-6270

Originally Posted by Terry Cross

I apologize in advance but I have to rant for a second.

I have always been a huge, huge Leupold advocate. They were always my benchmark for quality, innovation and U.S. workmanship. I own an awful lot of their product and continue to use it regularly.

However. . . . In the last few years, I have seen a change in the way Leupold does business and delivers product to the market. As they have grown, they have embraced many less than admirable traits that seem to define too many parts of American businesses. While their pricing has been steadily increasing at a faster rate than inflation, their quality has dropped. They are still capable of producing a sharp, repeatable optic but not as dependably.

My biggest aggravation with Leupold is the fact that less than 5% of their product line that can be legally stamped "Made in U.S.A." and I'm not even sure that those few are !!! What started out with a few of their Wind River imports has blown into an all out effort to prostitute their name brand for a dollar.

I just received 18 RX-4 range finders, 18 Mk4 10x50 Patrol Binoculars and 18 LR/T 4.5-14x50mm TMR Illum. scopes for a package deal I have to ship. This is pretty much suppossed to be their better gear. Guess what? Range finders "Made In CHINA". Binoculars "Made In China". Scopes have no country of origin marked on the packaging, instructions or product. Call back from Leupold informs me that the scopes are assembled in Oregon but so many of the parts and sub-assemblies are made over-seas (mostly China except for some of their lenses)that they do not qualify for the Made in USA stamp!

I can assure you that sourcing their components and products from China has dropped their costs very, very dramatically while they have continued to raise market prices. You know, honestly, it isn't even the price/profit thing that burns me. It is the fact that they chose to move their sourcing and manufacturing (I do consider "manufacturing" and "assembly" two different beasts in this instance) out of the country and specifically China. Why couldn't they keep most of their production here and just up their pricing 10%? Jesus, I could drop my selling price and triple my profit on freakin Pod-Loc kits if I used components from outside the U.S., but I refuse to go there. Guess that is why I still drive a 10 year old truck.

While they may still have satisfactory product performance and at least attempt innovative ideas occaisionally, I believe that they are straying from their roots, pumping a ton of money into foreign factories and putting yet another hole in the bottom of the lifeboat that retains at least a small fraction of our ability to domestically support our police and military logistics in the event of any serious conflict. I remain firmly convinced that we shall sorely curse the day that we wake up and realize that we need to raise our military to a task only to find out we have cut off our own legs. I aim this statement not only at Leupold but other textile, steel, electronics and molding industries based in the U.S. You don't just start that [bleep] back up inside the U.S. borders overnight.

I will continue to use my original Leupold products but I shall migrate away from giving their company blanket support. I will, instead continue to give more and more support to companies that take risks, accept slightly lower margins and consciously make the effort to strengthen our own economy and workforce. As you purchase your gear or spec out the equipment for your agency bids, please consider more than F.O.V. and click value.

I would seriously love to debate the execs at Leupold in front of their Board about some of this.

DISCLAIMER: I know that some out there will have personal budgets at home that restrict your choices to imports and I totally respect that. A non-US product is better than no product at all in some cases.

DISCLAIMER #2: Yeah, that was more than a second. Sorry.

TC


_________________________
http://www.kmwlrs.com / http://www.1milRT.com
KMW-Long Range Solutions
Forest Hill, LA

Little things matter at a distance.


NRA Life Benefactor Member
GB1

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,627
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,627
Matt
Rick owns and operates this board for folks to sit around and converse. He also makes a buck off it by selling product.

So you come along and use someone YOU feel is fair... I personally know little more than the name and certainly have no idea of anything he has ever done... as the last word in Leupold bashing.

You call it fair.

I call it schitting on Rick's rug.

And you are known to sell a scope or two and you are using Rick's place to run down his product.

But let's look how he does it... He badmouths them for moving overseas, like almost all manufacturers. And he bitches about the price increases suggesting Leupold does not need the money.

Has he looked at all the costs Leupold has to pay? Does he have the inside track on all the knock-off Leupolds and what it costs them? Ever hear of a knock-off Burris, or Bushnell, or any other scope brand? Has he got the service costs all dialed in so he knows exactly what each scope is going to cost them over time?

No, this sounds like any other chickenshit attempt at running down another's product in his own livingroom.
art


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,851
W
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
W
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,851
I don't know Terry Cross and I'm a Leupold user for at least 30 years. I have a few other scopes but 90%+ of what's on my rifles are Leupolds. Whoever Terry Cross is, the point of equipping our military with products that are made by our enemies is a fair one and an important strategic consideration most other countries pay attention to in supporting strategically vital industries (e.g., France with aircraft manufacturing) but we seem to have taken for granted.

We need to retain enough industrial manufacturing capability to support our military. We probably won't have the time we had in WWII to convert civilian production capacity to military production. We soon won't have manufacturing capability to convert anyway. Even for the LICs we're most likely to be continiously involved in, the products that equip the infantry and even SF are now being outsourced offshore.

Without any disrespect to our host Rick, the problem is real.


Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty of give me death! P. Henry

Deus vult!

Rhodesians all now

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
S
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
S
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Matt is a tool


"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 234
S
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
S
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 234
Good post Matt -unfortunately the leupold fans have their blinders on .

Nightforce and March are the result of leupolds design - quality control problems .

Problem solved.

This could be a rather interesting discussion on optics -marketing and design but it won't ever happen here.

i.e. see Steelhead's attitude


Stonewall

Last edited by Stonewall; 04/24/09.
IC B2

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,820
M
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Content
Campfire 'Bwana
M
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,820
Quote
Nightforce and March are the result of leupolds design - quality control problems .

Problem solved.


How about the problem of paying for them with prices starting well above $1K ?

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 566
O
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
O
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 566
I don't think anyone is trying to hurt Rick's business, unless he has stock in leupold, a man was just stating his opinion, which is what everyone does here. I have only leupolds on my best rifles, but I agree with Terry. The last leupold I bought had to be sent back to the factory twice within the first year I had it, which they finally replaced with a new one, the last time I sent it back it took 3 months before they resolved the problem. Leupolds motto used to be "Made Right Made Here". Unemployment is at an all time high, and American manufacturers are getting products from overseas, and I know most manufacturers do it, but that doesn't mean everyone has to. For those of you who don't know who Terry is, click on his website, or google his name.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,722
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,722
What would inevitably hurt Rick would be the perception that the information found on this site was less than accurate when it dealt with certain subjects concerning "The Campfire's" product line. Finding a little [bleep] on the rug can be a good thing. It lets you know that you're getting traffic and that people are comfortable with dissent via your medium. One of America's most enviable traits! Advanced concepts are often difficult for the gang mentality.


WAR EAGLE!

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086
There are a few comments I'd like to make on this entire thread.
I am not going to defend Leupold as much as supply some more facts.

First, if Nightforce is going to be held up as a paragon of American manufacturing and quality (which is the implication in one post) we should be aware that the parts for their scopes are made in Japan and assembled in Idaho. They are great scopes, but they are a long way from "Made In The USA."

Second, Leupold's factory in Oregon continues to grow. I first visited it in 1990 and then again two years ago. It is a LOT bigger than it used to be, and they do crank out the main tubes for their scopes there. I watched it being done--and in fact they are the biggest user of aluminum on the West Coast.

They may or may not employ as many people as they did in 1990, but partly that's because they use a lot of huge CNC machines now. This means that more of the work is done by machines than people. This is also a huge factor in manufacturing in most of the First World.



“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 729
D
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
D
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 729
+1 on what Wildcat said.

I have been a Leupold user for many years, and 3 of the last 4 scopes that I've purchased have been Leupold. That said, they are not beyond reproach.

All manufacturers have to balance costs of production against their bottom line. If a manufacturer such as Leupold would come out and say "This riflescope was manufactured entirely in the USA, with American labor, but our production cost (and sales price to you) is $10 higher than if we produced this product in China", I suspect that Leupold would more than make up that difference in added sales. We outdoors folks tend to be rather proud of our country, and would pay a little more to help it.

It is imperative that we have a strong manufacturing capacity at the ready in the US for when we need it in time of war. There will be future wars, unfortunately, and we can never lose sight of that.


IC B3

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,086
I suspect the difference would be a lot more than $10.

The people who are really concerned about this should write Leupold, instead of batting it back and forth among us. They are primarily a family-owned company and the executives do what the family directs them to.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884
D
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
D
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884
Originally Posted by Daveman
"This riflescope was manufactured entirely in the USA, with American labor, but our production cost (and sales price to you) is $10 higher than if we produced this product in China"


I'm thinkin' you might have missed a zero there!

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,168
N
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
N
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,168
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I suspect the difference would be a lot more than $10.

The people who are really concerned about this should write Leupold, instead of batting it back and forth among us. They are primarily a family-owned company and the executives do what the family directs them to.


To use a Burris example..

Burris moved the short mags from Colorado to the Philipines and renamed them timberlines. They cut the price 45%. and I would guess a company owned and run factory in the philipines is a bit more expensive than contract production in China.

One can debate the business choice of american production.. its hard to know. Lets face it if we had two options.. The american made Leupolds at todays prices, or the same scope assembled in China at a lot less.

Currently I am mulling picking up a FXII 4X for a new project.

Here are my choices.. Leupold 4X $270 or Burris 1.75.x5 sig safari $300., but if I could buy the Chinese assembled FXII for $140 it would be one tough choice.



The collection of taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny. Under this Republic the rewards of industry belong to those who earn them. Coolidge
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383
O
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
O
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29,383
Quote
All manufacturers have to balance costs of production against their bottom line. If a manufacturer such as Leupold would come out and say "This riflescope was manufactured entirely in the USA, with American labor, but our production cost (and sales price to you) is $10 higher than if we produced this product in China", I suspect that Leupold would more than make up that difference in added sales. We outdoors folks tend to be rather proud of our country, and would pay a little more to help it.


+1 i would pay more if the scope was entirely made in the US or at least the majority of parts were. The fact that there is a single Chinese part in the scope makes it a nobuy . It is difficult to avoid Chinese goods but I go out of my way these days . A country that is hellbent on the destruction of our country is not worthy of my money if I can darn help it. Dang and i was about to buy a VX-3 3.5-10x40

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,189
T
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
T
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,189
Few folks shoot as straight as Matt and Terry knows his way around a rifle(understatement).

Leupie currently catalogs more schit wares than ever before and I'm a Leupie Slut of the highest order.

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,239
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 28,239
Terry's comments are sad but true IMO.


It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,189
T
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
T
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,189
Terry has forgot more than most could ever hope to know.

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,743
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,743
Originally Posted by Stonewall
Good post Matt
Nightforce and March are the result of leupolds design - quality control problems .

Problem solved.

Stonewall

The sad fact is that loopie has the ability to adress those problems.
And doesnt.
Its an American thing.
Invented here, built elsewhere.
dave


[Linked Image]

Only accurate rifles are interesting.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,516
Old Elk Hunter,

I'm with you. If somebody is pointing a gun (missile, etc.) in my direction (e.g., China), I'm smart enough not to send them a check to buy bullets (or to pay someone to steal advanced guidance technology). Communist China also has us by the neck financially (as seen in the financial news over the last several months), and Communist China uses the money we send them to buy up rights to energy and minerals/materials sources around the world. They also use the money we send them to buy friends (who then become less friendly to us). Buying Communist Chinese products directly funds the Communist government because all of the large industrial businesses in Communist China are government owned. Who on this site would have dared to buy Soviet goods during the Cold War? Guess what, China is the 21st Century version of the Soviet Union, but they are worse because they are using the money we send them against us and to raise the price of metals such as copper, brass, lead (anybody paying more for reloading supplies these days?).

I go out of my way to avoid Communist Chinese goods. I don't have a problem buying products made in Taiwan and the Philippines and a lot of other places, but I look for that "Made in ..." sticker, and if it says China, it goes back on the shelf.

I wish companies would put the country of origin of products on their websites because it would save them phone calls and emails from me to ascertain where products are made. I realize the complexity of sourcing and how that complicates categorizing a product as made in a certain location, but there should be ways of certifying that no part of a product is made in Communist China.

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,627
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,627
I did a lousy job making my point...
Terry Cross is an outstanding gun guy, period, end of that discussion.

Terry ain't talking guns here, he is stating a personal bias on marketing and many reading this know a hell of a lot more than Terry on that subject. And since Terry is not likely a marketing guru his bias means little.

Matt is doing a cut and paste on another's opinion on Leupold marketing and that other is no marketing guru. His opinion is bing given extra weight because of Terry's gun background. He has no more basis for his opinion than anyone else here, and likely, less than many.

I still call that wrong...
art


Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24

161 members (2ndwind, 10gaugemag, 338reddog, 450yukon, 1_deuce, 45_100, 26 invisible), 2,120 guests, and 1,030 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,191,387
Posts18,469,704
Members73,931
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.069s Queries: 14 (0.004s) Memory: 0.9101 MB (Peak: 1.0729 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-04-26 05:57:04 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS