Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Bitterroot Valley,,,Montana

FWP just finished spring surveys and it sure does not look good for our future elk hunting.

Interesting!!

I have been eyeballing a lot of property up there.

What is the reason for the decline? Wolves? People?

Increase in large predators, both wolves and lions, and a very liberal hunting season since 2004.

What I've seen, over the years, is that when animals like deer and elk reach range capacity, their numbers decline thereafter.
If you talk to anyboby that's been around for a while you'll learn that Montana's elk numbers are at an all time high.
Where I hunt them in SW Montana, the harvest hasn't reached the necessary numbers for a the last few years. When that happens, you can expect to see this.
The other thing is that that may be related to a change in range conditions. It could be that the burn areas of the last few years haven't reached the point where they will add to the elk population. Or some of the older burns and logged off areas have past their prime. E

No where in Montana has elk numbers reached range capacity. I don't know if living in Montana for 48 years qualifies as "being around for a while" but the reduction in elk numbers in Montana is 100% a social issue, not a biological issue.

Our state legislature passed a resolution requiring the numbers of elk be capped at some mysterious numbers set by members of the livestock industry. No science was used to get these numbers, it was from competing range interests. So the Dept. of Fish Wildlife and Parks was under some pressure to get the kill and numbers of elk reduced. I think they didn't realize though that at the same time predators where taking an increasing share of the existing animals. You might call it misguided mis-management.

C'mon E, let's get real. There's one major reason for the decline, and those of us that live in Montana know it, 'cause we live it and see the sign. It's called a wolf.

On the N-S range just to the West of me there is a population of Bighorn's that reached a high count of 300+ a few years ago. The count this year is about half that, and that's info from a good friend of mine who did the counts. Think the sheep reached range capacity or couldn't find quality food?

It always amazes me how hunters never feel they have a negative impact on game populations. Out of just 2 hunting districts in the Bitterroot the check station was checked 2694 elk in 5 seasons of either sex hunting. Based on over 20 years of phone survey data FWP feels they check 55% of the total harvest. So basic math shows the total harvest to be around 5000 elk just out of 2 hunting district in 5 season. Factor in wolves and lions, and liberal seasons and you end up right where we are today. On a postive note a guy can always take up bowling.

Don't feel alone.

Just over the hill to the west, Idaho elk numbers are decreasing at an alarming rate in the hunting units bordering MT. A recent study by the IDF&G showed a 13% decrease in cow elk numbers PER YEAR! The wolf reintroduction, poor habitat, and a dismal calf survival ratio are all to blame and adding up to a very small elk herd.

Interesting. Just to the East of you, in the Bighole, there are many areas where you can harvest a cow elk with your general tag. I know, because I hunt there. While FWP policies can cause a guy to do some serious head scratching, elk numbers being down just over the mountain from where you are aren't because of excess hunter harvest. Some friends hunted your side of the mountain this year, and all they saw was wolf sign..........and very few elk. So, while I don't have any first hand knowledge of what's what in the Roots, I still believe that the problem has four legs instead of two.

Even with the problems, the worst day hunting is better than the best day bowling (grin).

"there are many areas where you can harvest a cow elk with your general tag"


Big changes coming to the Big Hole also and its not because there is an elk behind every tree.

HUNTING DISTRICT 321 � ELK MANAGEMENT PROPOSAL

In Hunting District 321, there are primarily two main elk herds. The herd in the south half of the district winters in the Salmon area of Idaho and summers from Highway 43 to Skinner Meadows Road near Jackson, MT. The herd in the north half of the district winters in HD 270 of the Bitterroot Valley and summers from Highway 43 to Pintler Creek. Management concerns are not equal between these two herds. Therefore, my first proposal is to split Hunting District 321 into 2 districts, along Highway 43, in order to allow for more effective elk management. The south half will be Elk HD 321, the north half will be Elk HD 334.

New Elk HD 321

Management Objectives:
� To redistribute elk off private land.
� To provide for quality bull-hunting opportunity.
� To provide for quality archery hunting by reducing overcrowding.

Season Structure Proposal for 2010:

� Implement limited A9/B12 permits valid for archery and gun season, district-wide (i.e. not restricted to private land only.) The majority of antlerless elk in this area are on private land or right at the private land-forest interface. Private land access is generally good in this area, with several landowners either in Block Management or allowing public hunting. The A9/B12 permits would commit a hunter to that district specifically to hunt an antlerless elk. This will help to not only disperse eIk off private land but also to reduce some of the offending elk that have the knowledge and habit of showing up and staying on private land spring-fall.

� Implement a Brow-tined bull regulation. Similar recommendations are being proposed for a majority of hunting districts in SW MT in Region 3.

� Implement a 5-week BTB/A- season on the general license for the gun season. This is where population management occurs. In this district, elk often leave the country and head into Idaho within the first 2 weeks of gun season, with hunting and weather pressure. Therefore, I�d like to retain the liberal ability to harvest elk during this short time period.

� Implement a BTB/A- permit-only season for the 6-week Archery season. This is to address a perceived overcrowding issue. Because elk are typically not available for the entire 5week gun season as mentioned above, I do not recommend going to permits for the gun season, which is essential for elk population management. Therefore, this proposal is socially, not biologically based. Permits could be limited, therefore allowing the number of nonresident permits to be capped at 10%, or unlimited, which would remove the nonresident cap but allow anyone who puts in for one to receive one.

New Elk HD 334

Management Objectives:
� To provide for quality bull-hunting opportunity.
� To help alleviate the low calf recruitment issue that is occurring in the Bitterroot Valley by minimizing harvest on cow elk.

Season Structure Proposal for 2010:

� Implement a Brow-tined bull regulation.

� Implement a 6-week BTB/A- archery season and a 5-week BTB general season with a limited number of BTB/A- permits valid district-wide.

Thanks for posting this. It looks like FWP is clued in to the social aspects of the problem and I do hope that their objectives can be reached. These regs should make for a more pleasant hunting experience, I'm thinking.

I hunted the bitterroot in 07, we saw wolf scat and tracks EVERY day,my guide said that he only had about 5 years then he would be out of business, unless people would pay to hunt wolf.

Whip, lets get really real, we have taken advantage of the liberal seasons brought about by the resolution spearheaded by the livestock industry. We,(hunters) have killed more wildlife than predators. The predators are out of hand, but there's nothing that we can do as of yet about them. We need to take responsibility for our actions. There is no free lunch. We can't have either sex seasons in this day and age with uncontrolled predators. BTW, the Big Hole Valley's major industry is raising cattle. No wonder that liberal either sex seasons are in place.

I'm not downplaying the fact that a general season "hair tag" has had an impact on numbers due to the higher harvest of cows. I agree it's part of the problem. One of the things that makes me cringe is running into beav where they don't belong. But I'll take my own first hand knowledge of what I've seen the last 10 years and throw it in the trash, and let a biologist friend of mine (independent, btw, not a biologist that's entrenched in FWP)that knows far more about the problem than I do speak for me, and he, my friend, unanimously points to the wolf as the main cause of dramatic declines to the ungulate population. The higher decline in cow/calf ratios also substantiates this, as does the decline of other species (deer, sheep) not subject to the same harvests. Additionally, the same problem exists with the elk population where there are not liberal either sex opportunities in place. Was it hunters that took the Yellowstone population from 18,000 to 6,000? So please, let's get really real here. Until we can deal with the wolf problem, the decline will continue.

I completely agree with you on either sex seasons with the predator problem. It's got to stop.

"Was it hunters that took the Yellowstone population from 18,000 to 6,000?"

Actually hunters played a big part in that decline also, along with wolves and grizzlies. If I remember right FWP issued 3000 cow permits over there for years and years as the wolf and bear numbers increased never once backing off the harvest until it was to late.

The grizzly and the hunter was here pre el lobo, el lobo came and the elk herds took a serious tumble. Me thinks it's goes just a bit past the griz/hunter thing to say what is the major contributer to the loss of elk herds.

I recall a while back the Boze paper ran an article about the Theodore Roosevelt national park in western ND having an elk problemo that they needed to cut back. They didn't wish to begin hunting it if I recall. My thoughts, introduce a fairly sizeable amount of wolves to the area and see how it's sitting in 5-10 years. The griz couldn't be the problem, the hunter couldn't be it either and the dry summers is something they always work with so that couldn't be it either. I'd be a farm if I had one to bet that the elk herd there would take a total down turn and we'd have only one thing to look at as to why.

E mentioned that in the area he hunts for elk when he comes here that they haven't met the harvest goal and that if you talk with anyone that they're at an all time high. The thing is that the wolf hasn't gotten entrenched in the area as of yet, but when they do (and this isn't one of those things that is it gonna happen it's a matter of when it happens) then look for things to change.

Personally, and I could be wrong on this one but in terms of sentiments about the wolf. If we were able to shoot them on sight like a yote, I think that it'd go a long way for making better relations with the hunters. Real world is not many would be taken out on a year to year basis, and real world is aside from all out pestiside and chopper war we'll never no way get a handle on them.

Just my random thoughts on a lovely Sat morn. Enjoy your weekend all!

Dober

As per usual Mark, I agree 100% with what you posted. Hunter harvest won't have much of an impact on this problem. The bio friend I mentioned also happens to do control here where I live, sitting as gunner on a helicopter. Even with a radio collared bitch in the pack they are trying to eliminate, they flew, IIRC, 4 long days to harvest 2 wolves. Even in a helo, it aint easy.....

Creasy, I agreed that hunter's harvest plays a part in this game, but it's importance in the big picture pales compared to the wolf reintroduction. For years the FWP issued the same number of permits for the Yellowstone hunt and herd numbers were maintained. In fact, statewide, prior to 1995 herd numbers were on the rise. Then, one factor in the equation changed and it hit the Yellowstone herd first. And, IIRC, FWP dropped permit quotas as herd numbers declined. They might have been a little slower to implement the drop in permit numbers than some of us would have liked. But most of us are used to FWP addressing something after it's happened than before it's happened.

Now it's time for me to head outside with my boys and take a little canoe ride!!!!! It is indeed a beautiful day here in Montana. Enjoy all!

Canoe ride, way too cool lake I spect?

PM me with details if you wish.

Dober

Mark, the locals tell me that they have watched the wolves chase the elk around on the slopes above town all winter long for years, long before I ever got there. They are present during the hunting season.
My point is that to say the wolves are the cause of any decline in calf production or elk numbers is pretty simplistic.
I've seen lots of complaints, but no proof.
For instance, a herd of bighorn deeclined 50% over a few years in an area. And the wolves did that ? That's funny. I've never seen their cousins, the mountain coyote, ever able to chase a sheep into the excape terrain where they live. They don't even try. Could some bad winters have had an effect as well ?
Then we have the comment about range capacity being some sort of "mysterious number" dreamed up by the livestock operators. Really ? Wouldn't surprise me if the critical range for that elk herd depended on them wintering on that rancher's land. If that's the case, and it often is, then he has a right to use some of that habitat to raise his cattle. If he puts cattle on it, then there can only be fewer elk using it during the critical time of year for them.
These things are not simple, black and white, one factor making all of the difference. That's why we have highly educated and funded professionals managing these resources.
You guys ought to see what California's wildlife management is like. Here, if the professionals say we need to have a few doe hunts, the county board of supervisors can over ride any attempt to do so. The results have been some nasty die offs. The sad thing is these people never learn. They keep doing it over and over. It's too bad. We have the ability to raise and maintain lots of deer, three different species of elk, a couple of pronghorn and at least three species of bighorn. But due to misinformed individuals who keep insisting they know more than the professionals, we have nothing like the hunting oportunities you have in Montana. E