|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 99
Campfire Greenhorn
|
OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 99 |
I came across a 1996 article in Rifle that Finn Aagaard wrote about the efficacy of slings. I remembered it as one that was rather influential to me in those days and have found what he said to be true since then. It got me thinking about another article he wrote about low power scopes versus ghost rings and the advantages and disadvantages of both. I think it was in the context of dangerous game rifles. Does anyone remember this article and can provide me with the name of the periodical, date, etc.
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,939 Likes: 3
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,939 Likes: 3 |
If I remember it was from one of his NRA articles but was also reprinted in his book. It could have been in some of his later work with Wolfe Pub and that would also be in their book of reprints of his article and is still available.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800 |
Does anyone remember this article and can provide me with the name of the periodical, date, etc. What you are remembering might possibly be one of these three: (1) "Which is Faster, Scope or Irons", American Rifleman, July 1987, page 40. This article was not reprinted in the 1990 collection of NRA articles, Finn Aagaard on Hunting Rifles & Cartridges. I'm not sure it has been reprinted anywhere. (2) "Iron Sights are the Second-Best Choice", American Rifleman, November 1988, page 34. Finn wrote this one as a response to an article by Wayne Van Zwoll, who had written about the virtues of irons in the August 1988 issue. Both Finn's and Van Zwoll's articles were reprinted in the NRA collection. (3) "The Scoop on Scopes". This article is in the NRA collection. It may have first appeared in The American Hunter; I cannot find it in my accumulation of issues of American Rifleman. Good luck. --Bob
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 99
Campfire Greenhorn
|
|
OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 99 |
Thanks, Phil and BullShooter. I recall that he believed that a low power scope was as fast or slighter faster than irons. I wanted to read it again. Again, thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 12,895
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 12,895 |
I am pretty sure he also mentions it in "Aagaard Africa" although probably not as indepth as the first article mentioned...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335 |
I learned on the 7mm-08 vs 308 thread that you can use a scope as a ghost ring sight.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,144 Likes: 11
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,144 Likes: 11 |
If it is the same article I am recalling, I believe the test shooters were people who mostly (or only) used scopes. This would be the one flaw in the test. People who are really used to using irons (especially a ghost ring) can be awfully darn fast.
A low-powered scope is certainly fast, but a few years ago I won an informal (but precisely timed) quick-shoting contest with a rifle set up with a ghost ring. It was a bolt-action, too, and at least one of the other rifles in the contest was a lever-action.
That isn't to say low-powered scopes aren't fast. They are, but a lot of speed has to do with familiarity, and people who don't use irons much tend to be faster with a scope. And people who are used to using a double-barreled shotgun are apt to be VERY fast at close-range shooting with an open-sighted double-barreled rifle. Often they don't even need to use the sights at very close ranges (say 20-25 yards or less) instead just pointing the rifle like a shotgun and still hitting within an inch or two of where they're looking.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 99
Campfire Greenhorn
|
|
OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 99 |
The article I am thinking about involved Finn's personal test comparing a low power scope versus iron sights like he did in the sling article. But, I am not 100% sure which is why I want to locate and read it again.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
If it is the same article I am recalling, I believe the test shooters were people who mostly (or only) used scopes. This would be the one flaw in the test. People who are really used to using irons (especially a ghost ring) can be awfully darn fast.
A low-powered scope is certainly fast, but a few years ago I won an informal (but precisely timed) quick-shoting contest with a rifle set up with a ghost ring. It was a bolt-action, too, and at least one of the other rifles in the contest was a lever-action.
That isn't to say low-powered scopes aren't fast. They are, but a lot of speed has to do with familiarity, and people who don't use irons much tend to be faster with a scope. And people who are used to using a double-barreled shotgun are apt to be VERY fast at close-range shooting with an open-sighted double-barreled rifle. Often they don't even need to use the sights at very close ranges (say 20-25 yards or less) instead just pointing the rifle like a shotgun and still hitting within an inch or two of where they're looking. a few years ago i was deer hunting early in the morning with the family. I managed to get away from them and was walking up along a dirt road in a little valley intending to find a nice tree to take a nap under. I had a browning .270BAR slung on my shoulder. I heard some running coming down along side the mountain towards me. There was a little clearing to my right and two bucks broke out running down the hill. I swung the browning off my shoulder and had two rounds in that buck before i realized what i was doing. He went kerplop with balistic tips in him at about 25yards. His mistake was I am left handed and he was to my right and i have fired thousands of rounds through a remington 1100 shotgun quail hunting, which this shot while a deer was pretty much a standard quail shot for me. I told him that if he would have been a little slower, i would have let him go. Pure reaction.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,954
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,954 |
Finn wa a very knowledeable guy, but in truth I am not so sure he really believed that, and we had a few friendly discussions on that subject over his article..He did like the 2.5 and 3X Weavers, thats for sure.
I will challange anyone for beer or steak, in a shooting contest me with irons and they with scopes up to 100 yards..I personally am faster with irons, and can shoot irons more accuratly offhand at 100 yards, again off hand only.
Something about my wiggles and wobbles being magnified the power of the scope that is disconcerting and I don't see this with irons and I don't grab at the trigger with irons as it passes by the target like I do with a scope off hand. Irons appear to be locked on target, thus I suspect that my trigger pull is better with irons. At a DG shoot some years ago, I won 7 second places shooting irons against scopes at 100 yards, I have not figured that out yet, but always one guy in the big group of shooters that out lucked me, but never the same guy twice.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,144 Likes: 11
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,144 Likes: 11 |
Ray, I think you are absolutely right about the trigger pull-at least for some of us.
I KNOW that when confronted with a quick offhand shot on big game with iron sights I pull the trigger more smoothly than when using a scope.
The scope's reticle is too precise--and therefore I hesitate a little on some shots trying for that precise hold. With irons I just get them on the right part of the animal and squeeze off.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,264
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,264 |
And this whole discussion brings up the low powered vs. high powered scope argument again.
I started shooting old military rifles a 6 or 8 years ago and was amazed at how well one could shoot with iron sights. I agree with the assertion that out to a hundred yards or so, irons are easier to hit with offhand.
Low powered scopes offer the best compromise. They are almost as quick and easy to shoot offhand as irons, but a 3x or 4x is plenty for any shot on a deer sized animal out to 400 yards or so. I find that anything over 4x is very much more difficult to shoot well offhand.
Our current trends in scopes are the result of too many people shooting from benches.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,939 Likes: 3
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,939 Likes: 3 |
Ray, Make that a beer and a steak and I'm on. That way we can continue to "disagree" on something and either way we both win.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 21
New Member
|
|
New Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 21 |
Optics are damn near universal now in the US armed forces- even in door-to-door city fighting. I can think of few hunting shots that have to be quicker or closer than some of the stuff in urban warfare.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1 |
I will challange anyone for beer or steak, in a shooting contest me with irons and they with scopes up to 100 yards..I personally am faster with irons, and can shoot irons more accuratly offhand at 100 yards, again off hand only.
Ray, I'm gonna go with Phil on this concept. I don't truly know which is faster, low power scope or irons...but I'll see your " Challenge"...and raise you some shrimp thrown on the barbie too...  We can "agree to disagree" at length when the beer comes out, and I don't care which side I'm on...  Ingwe
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,263
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,263 |
I vaguely remember that article, Aagard did better with low power scopes. There is no substitute for practice and familiarity, but in Aaagard's case most of his early hunting was with irons.
Technique is important and a scope can be used with both eyes open to instinct shoot like a traditional Bow or a shotgun. Used this way they are plenty fast. I have heard of more than one well placed shot being made with the scope covers still in place.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,939 Likes: 3
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,939 Likes: 3 |
I did a lot of testing between open & peep sights vrs low powered scope when I built my 458. Finn and I talked a lot about it and were in perfect agreement. At distances under 25 yards, with a rifle that you are comfortable and familiar with, instinctive shooting ( over iron sights - but they really aren't seen) is the fastest by far but at distances from 50 yards and farther both Finn and I found that scopes were not only quicker but much more accurate.
But that was just Finn and me. I don't underestimate Ray's, or any other experienced iron sight users, ability. They have obviously lived long enough to get the jobs done they set out to do.
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
|
|
|
|
|
547 members (12344mag, 2500HD, 222Sako, 160user, 240NMC, 1lessdog, 58 invisible),
2,650
guests, and
1,277
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,293
Posts18,486,946
Members73,967
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr288/Bwnci/welsh-flag-large-anim.gif)
