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#3235981 - 08/18/09 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets
VarmintGuy Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 7239
Loc: SW Montana
Had occassion today to get my newish Remington 700 VTR in 223 Remington (with the 1 in 9" twisted barrel!) back out to the range today.
You may recall I bought this VTR Remington 700 not aware that it has a barrel with the 1 in 9" twist which is normally better suited for heavier and longer bullets.
My intentions for the Rifle was to have it available for when my Ground Squirrel Hunting partners put away their rimfires and bring out their "centerfires" (this puts the closer Ground Squirrels down from the LOUD report of their centerfires and I just stand around waiting for a new stand where the rimfires can be brought back into action).
Anyway I got a great deal on the VTR and get it home and measure the barrel and the muzzle brake and THEN I make reference in the 2,009 Remington catalog and discover the twist rate that is not so conducive to accuracy with the lighter bullets I wanted to use on the diminutive and prolific Ground Squirrels.
Well I had a "sinking feeling" when this info sunk in!
Oh well I thought I'll give it the old college try.
I mounted a Leupold 3.5x10 VX-III on it and headed for the range with some Federal factory machine gun ammo I had on hand.
It shot that ammo pretty well during initial sight-in, break-in!
Then I tried some handloads that I had on hand for another 223 - this ammo used the wonderful 52 gr. Berger Varmint bullets.
That day I shot two groups (5 shots at 100 yards) which measured .551" and .685" - not bad I thought for a new rig with a 10 power scope and "light bullets".
And that .685" group had four shots in .271".
I was pleased with this performance.
Now 29 days later the wind FINALLY quit for an hour and I headed for my Rifle range with some handloads made with 40 grain Berger bullets and some made with 40 grain Sierra BlitzKings.
I got to fire 10 rounds making two groups there at 100 yards with the 40 grain Bergers and the groups measured .710" and .814". I was somewhat happy with these results.
I looked carefully at the "bullet holes" in my BR style targets and they seemed to be very concentric with no signs of tipping or canting.
Anyway the 1 in 9" twisted barrel didn't do horrible things to these 40 grainers and I may end up using them for my Ground Squirreling?
The wind came up as I was shooting and by the time I got to the Sierra BlitzKing 40 grainers the wind was blowing to hard for real accuracy evaluation.
I'll try again tomorrow.
I do see the accuracy difference in this very small sampling of my handloads.
I'll post if the Sierra 40 grainers are an improvement accuracy wise.
Anyone else trying light bullets in the 1 in 9" twisted 223's?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

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#3236074 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: VarmintGuy]
acloco Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 1602
Loc: Nebraska
You will not run into issues with the 40 grain in fast for bullet weight barrels....until you start pushing them in the 3800-4100+ velocity area.

Then, you will find out who makes concentric and thicker jackets.

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#3236107 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: acloco]
2ndtimer Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 442
Loc: Kennewick, WA
I would be curious to see how much velocity you lose to the faster twist barrel. How long is the barrel on your VTR? Both of my .223's are 1 in 12 twists and pretty much made for the 40 thru 55 gr bullets. I can push the 40's over 3600 fps in the 26" barrel Remington without too much trouble, and 3500+ is achieveable in the 22" Howaby Vanguard Varmint. Of course, I have no idea if my rifles could even stabilize a 60 gr bullet, much less a 68 gr. I have heard that the 1 in 9" will handle up to the 75 gr Hornady, but curious to know how much you will give up with the lighter bullets.

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#3236250 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: 2ndtimer]
MichiganScott Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 03/17/06
Posts: 2448
Loc: God's Country
Some high power competitors shoot 52-53gr. bullets in their 1 in 8 or 1 in 7.5 match rifles when shooting 100/200 yard reduced matches. It's all about how smooth the barrel is.
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#3236263 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: MichiganScott]
RickyD Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 30622
Loc: Iowa
I've used 40 Vmax with 10X and 35 Vmax with X terminator out of my 24" Colt AR with a 1:9 and got great accuracy.
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Today is the most important day in every person's life. Tomorrow is promised to no one.

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#3236514 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: RickyD]
GregW Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 9754
Loc: Southern Arizona
I've shot 40's and 50's with my 1:7" with no issues...
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#3236721 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: GregW]
Calif. Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 3054
Loc: OC, CA
I'm not sure why a faster twist would not work with lighter bullets, unless the RPM and velocity tore up flimsy jackets. Ballistic Tips will not do this. I do not think you can load a .223 hot enough to "shred" a 40 gr BT in any normal barrel. They are designed to withstand high RPMs.

I have had a Savage .223 with a 1 in 9" barrel for at least 15 years and have shot many, many sub-half inch groups with 40 gr V-Maxs, Ballistic Tips and 50 gr Speer TNTs, BTs and V-Maxs.

I just got back from Arizona a couple weeks ago and shot a couple hundred 40 gr BTs with great results for me. Not so great for the prairie dogs, though. wink

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#3236939 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: Calif. Hunter]
HawkI Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 15954
Loc: The Hawkeye State
I've ran 30's and 40's from 1-7's and 1-9's with fine accuracy;

I've had 50's mist halfway to the target...

It's all in the jacket/the driving area of the bullet and the condition of the bore.
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#3236980 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: HawkI]
Calif. Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 3054
Loc: OC, CA
The 50 gr Speer TNT or the Hornady SPX may do that from a .22-250, for example, at higher velocities, but should not have a problem from a .223. I think the reloading info on those bullets specify that they are not intended for verlocities exceeding a certain level.
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#3236996 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: Calif. Hunter]
MZ5 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 795
Loc: Arizona, USA
50 grain TNTs do indeed have a speed limit. 55 grain 'high velocity' TNTs do not.

There's no inherent reason for a 9 twist barrel to have trouble with 40 grainers unless there's a problem with the bullet's construction.

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#3237011 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: HawkI]
RickyD Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 30622
Loc: Iowa
Quote:
I've had 50's mist halfway to the target...
With a .223 Remington?
_________________________
Today is the most important day in every person's life. Tomorrow is promised to no one.

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#3237031 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: RickyD]
HawkI Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 15954
Loc: The Hawkeye State
Particularly the 50SP Midway Varmint Whatevers from a 1-9 222 Mag., ran at 3,550.

Perhaps they are Hornady SPSX's? But they do throw vapor at the 75 yard line and spray like buckshot... The 1-14, they throw fine.


I just chalk it up as a bullet made to a price, and 40's made well should have no problems running in a 1-9.


Edited by HawkI (08/18/09)
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" 'Hey look at me!' Who gives a schit about YOU. There's ten other guys out there".
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#3237123 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: acloco]
VarmintGuy Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 7239
Loc: SW Montana
Acloco: And those "issues" would be what - bullet disintegration, or loss of accuracy?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

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#3237134 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: 2ndtimer]
VarmintGuy Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 7239
Loc: SW Montana
2ndtimer: That would be interesting to see for sure.
I could run some of the already made 52 grain handloads I have through my chronograph being shot from the 26" barrel that they were made for - BUT - the barrel on this VTR (the rifled part of the barrel!) is only 20" long so poor comparison there.
To much room for guessing at the loss per inch and the like.
I don't know if I will be able to get a comparison to satisfy our curiousity because I do not have any other 223's with 20" barrels.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

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#3237140 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: RickyD]
VarmintGuy Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 7239
Loc: SW Montana
RickyD: That gives me encouragement to keep testing the 40 grainers (and maybe even the 35 grain V-Max's) in my 1 in 9" twisted VTR!
Thanks for that.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

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#3237155 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: MZ5]
VarmintGuy Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 7239
Loc: SW Montana
MZ5: Maybe I am suffering under a misinterpretation of the twist rate vs stabilization (or over-stabilization?) issue affecting accuracy.
This is the first "fast twist" in 223 Remington that I have had anything to do with.
Thanks for your clarification and correction of me and my erroneous assumption.
I have seen bullets disintegrate from to high a linear speed (at least that was what us observers attributed it to - and we could be wrong - maybe it in fact was an overdose of RPM's that caused the disintegration?) and determining whether it was an overdose of RPM's or just the speeding down the barrel forces that caused the disintegration?
Thanks again.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

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#3237243 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: VarmintGuy]
HawkI Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 15954
Loc: The Hawkeye State
Its bullet balance, stability and strength and bore condition.

To a large degree its similar things that cause inaccurate cast bullets; bullets that do not hold together to impart rotational forces and friction pressure from speed tend to be inaccurate.

Both can be hard on an unbalanced, thin jacketed or cheaply made bullet, regardless of weight, to a certain degree.
_________________________
" 'Hey look at me!' Who gives a schit about YOU. There's ten other guys out there".
Dick Butkus


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#3237322 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: MZ5]
Seafire Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 21109
Loc: Southern Oregon USA
I have a 22.250 with a one in 7 twist... I have rocketed 40 grain Blitzkings, Ballistic Tips, V Maxes and the 40 grain Sierra HP out of the barrel, and they hold together...

now an SPSX, it will vaporize those at about 6 inches out of the barrel...of course that can be entertaining to watch a couple of those...
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#3237364 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: Seafire]
rifle Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 5717
Loc: now in SC
I just finished shooting my Winchester Coyote .223 1-9" with 60 grain V-Max and 55 gr BT's..I'm hootin !! I caught a grass Hog in the Bean field on the way home at about 225 with the VMAX,put him in a spin and DRT....
3/8" to 1/2" using CCI's and 10X and tried 2015BR..
I'm happy with the heavy bullets!
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#3237451 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: rifle]
deflave Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 43098
Loc: Havre, Montana
Never had a .40gr V-Max, BT, or Speer give me anything but great results in my 1-9" .223

But boy do those SPSX's turn into shotguns. grin I do love those bullets in a slower twist though.


Travis

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#3237697 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: deflave]
Calif. Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 3054
Loc: OC, CA
My brother loves the Super Explosives out of his Remington a slower twist barrel. I do still like the 50 gr TNTs, though.
_________________________
“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.” George Orwell

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#3237738 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: Seafire]
VarmintGuy Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 7239
Loc: SW Montana
Seafire: And are you happy with the accuracy of the 40 grainers out of the 1 in 7" twisted 22-250?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

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#3237745 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: deflave]
VarmintGuy Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/23/03
Posts: 7239
Loc: SW Montana
Deflave: I will keep in mind your 40 grain recommendations for my near future load development tests.
I will stay away from the SPSX's.
And thank you for the bolstering of my intensity in getting this Rifle to shoot something in the 40 grain weight.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

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#3237777 - 08/18/09 Re: 223 Rem 1 in 9" Twist & 40 grain bullets [Re: VarmintGuy]
Calif. Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 3054
Loc: OC, CA
I have gotten the best accuracy with H-335, W-748, X-Terminator and H-322 with 40 gr bullets - but have not tried Benchmark, 10x and a bunch of other powders that are applicable. Since I load a lot of .223 ammo at a time, I like the way spherical powders or short-grain powders flow through a measure uniformly.
_________________________
“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.” George Orwell

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