Home Forums Gear Knives and Blades Can't sharpen my 154 cm

I bought a Lansky kit about 15 years ago. I like the edge it puts on most of my knives. If I put it on the 20 degree angle, I can get them sharp enough to shave some arm hairs. If I put it on the 25 angle, it isn't as sharp, but it holds an edge a little longer. I also have two Smith pull-through sharpeners, they have a 30 degree edge it says. They seem to do okay, but the Lansky does a little better, even if it does take longer.

Anyway, none of my knives could make it through an elk without getting too dull. I used a friend's Gerber with 154 cm on two caribou, and it did both and stayed sharp. So I went and bought a Gator with the 154.

I can't get it shaving sharp. I tried the pull-through sharpeners. One thousand times. (I counted.) I tried the Lansky. IT DID BETTER ON 25 THAN 20 DEGREES. Does that mean anything? I thought that maybe the steel is just too hard for the Lansky stones and I wasn't changing the angle on the blade. So last night I went and bought a Lansky extra course diamond stone. I just gave it 50 on each side, with that stone, the regular coarse, the medium, and the fine. (50 with each stone, doing both sides of the blade to count one.)It doesn't feel very sharp at all. (I tried the 20 degree, thinking the new stone would force it to be sharp.)

Did I just get a bad blade, or what am I doing wrong?

I just read a review in SA about a knive that could cut five pigs ans still be shaving sharp. I got online and checked the price. Over $400. My nicest knife, the Gerber with 154, was $40. Is there a way to get it shaving sharp, and able to hold an edge, or do I need a more expensive knife? (I can get less expensive knives shaving sharp, but they don't stay that way long.)

Any advice, hopefully using the sharpeners and knife I have?

Thanks

My retail store was for many years Gerber's largest jewelry account. We sold a lot of Gerber.

Shapening, particularly sending knives in for sharpening, eventually became an issue. Because of this, I was invited out to the Gerber factory to learn sharpening in their reconditioning department.

During that time, I met Blackie Collins at the Gerber plant and he explained to me that most custom knifemakers use the same grindwheel/hard muslin buff method of sharpening that Gerber uses.

During my many year friendship with George Herron, he told me the same. And he was delighted that I used the grindstone/muslin buff to keep his knives totally new.

Amazingly, few normal folks use the method and I was actually booed off of this part of the Campfire a couple of years ago for even mentioning it.

Anyway, as to the question: Take the knife to a cutlery shop that uses a leveled-grinder, followed by working the burr off with a hard muslin buff. Either that, or retrun the knife to the factory for shapening.

I won't suggest that you learn the grinder/buff; apparently, that is not done.

Steve

Dogzapper, thanks for the reply. Before I go find a sharpening shop with a leveled grinder, isn't there any way to do it at home? Is it just impossible to do with a Gerber Gator with the 154? (Come to think of it, I can't either of my other two Gerber with 440 something shaving sharp either, but I can get my Kershaw blades and Swiss Army knife that sharp.)

Dogzapper, or anyone else, is there any way to get the Gerbers really sharp without going to to shop or mailing them in? That seems like a hassle, I'd like to be able to sharpen them myself.

Come to think of it, I do have a buddy with a grinder in his garage. Can we just get a muslin buff, or would I likely ruin the blades?

Thanks again.

It is very important to drag the blade over the stone at the same angle each time. It has been my experience that really fine stones don't do anything but polish the edge, and contributes nothing to sharpness.

Try using the course, then the medium stone only, being careful to hold the same angle each time.

You are experiencing what many knife owners experience when using the so called super steels. They are unbelievablely difficult to sharpen. One trick is, when you once get it sharp, touch it up frequently so that it does not get really dull.

As a semi-retired knifemaker, I can tell you that using a grinder and a course wheel, without instructions from someone who knows what he is doing is a very quick way to ruin the knife, totally.

Most knifemakers I know sharpen their knives on a belt grinder and a hard cloth wheel, or a cardboard wheel. You can probably get by using the coarse diamond stone, then buffing on the cardboard wheel.

Someone makes a setup that includes two 8 inch cardboard wheels, one for a fine grit and the other for polishing rouge. That is what I use, except I use my belt grinder with a 220 grit belt, instead of a grinding wheel, to grind the burr on the edge.

Google knife sharpening and you might find the name of the company that makes those wheels. I can't remember the name off hand.

Something else you might want to do is ask around in your area and see if you can find a knifemaker. Some will sharpen you knives for you, using the grinder and wheel as Dogzapper describes.

You don't have to have a fancy set up to use the cardboard wheels mentioned above. Buy a grinder, such as Sears of Home Depot sells. Take the hard wheels off, and take the guards off each side. Bolt on the cardboard wheels and you are ready to sharpen.

Dogzapper, do you use a grinder with a hard (aluminum oxide) wheel, or a belt grinder, and does the Gerber factory use a hard wheel or a belt grinder?

Learning the grinder/buff is the best sharpening system, but the learning part is very important. It has to be done right, and the blade held at the correct angle for it to work, and above all, do not let the blade get hot.

I was taught, by Leatha the sharpening lady at Gerber at the time, to use the hard wheel. Being a goldsmith, this wheel was not unfamiliar to me and I would call it a medium grit. Leatha stressed that it is important to keep the wheel exactly level, by truing it occasionally with a diamond truing tool.

During my week at Gerber, I ground thousands of blades. They literally had barrels of screwed-up knives to practice on. Eventually, after maybe two full and hard days, I got pretty decent at it ... then, it was time to work on customer's knives. This gave me about 20 blades per hour to do and I got even better.

At the end of the five-day week, I bought a grinder with wheel and hard-stitched muslin buff from Gerber and brought it back to the store.

At first, I kept score; every customer's knife I sharpened went down into a book. When the score exceed 10,000, I ceased keeping book.

Over those years, the only thing I changed was the rouge I used to polish off the burr. I eventually found that platinum jeweler's rouge worked a bit better than the stuff Gerber issued. It required a bit lighter touch of the blade, but the edge was flippin' perfect.

I told George Herron about my discovery and he'd been there ten years before me ... naturally

Anyway, it is with the greatest hesitation that I mention this method of knife sharpening. It seems so simple to me and it is one I've been taught by true professionals. Yes, it takes practice and a lot of blades, but I believe it results in the best edge possible.

Having said that, my reception on this forum a couple of years ago was not pleasant, so I hesitate to even mention the system at all.

Steve

I use the Lansky on my blades and haven`t had any trouble getting an edge on ATS34 (Japans version of 154cm)or D or M2, very hard die and high speed cutting steels.
The problem sounds like you are trying to hit the blade at a shallower angle then the knife came with, you say when you go steeper it helps. If so, you are in for a long hard go of it. I find most blades on factory knifes like Buck or Gerber are ~20/30 degrees. Not the 18-20 some would have you believe. Try coloring the beveled edge with a magic marker and then give the blade a hit with a coarse stone in the lansky at the shallowest angle. Check the edge and note where the ink was removed and go to the next angle, repete ontil you are hitting the whole beveled area on the blade and use that angle.

I`ve no experiance with Dogzappers method and won`t say anymore about it them I`m sure it works.

Sounds like your either clamping the blade in the wrong spot or your not getting the first cut down to the edge itself, or as mentioned your not being consistant.

Do you start with the extra course stone to establish the first edge angle ?

I have used different compounds on the cardboard wheels, but recently, I tried Green Chrome Rouge, the same stuff I use to polish my blades. It works better that any of the other compounds I have used. Wonder why I didn't try it before now?

One reason I would hesitate about recommending someone using this method of sharpening is because of the cost of the grinder/buffing machine vs. the $10.00 to $20.00 cost of a whet stone or sharpening system. This is especially true for someone who is only going to sharpen his knives once or twice a year.

Another reason, would you want to let someone who has never even turned on a grinder sharpen one of your immaculate Herron knives using this method for the first knife he ever sharpened?

Of course, a first time sharpener could mess up a knife with a whet stone, too. He could just do it quicker with a grinder.

I have thousands of hours of time on a belt grinder, but I would hesitate trying it on a hard wheel, unless I had a barrel of messed up blades, as you did, to practice on.

Do you use any type of jig to hold your blades in place, or do you do it free hand? I've tried making a jig to hold the blades, but never designed one that would work very well.

I have used the cloth buff but the only thing I don't like about it is the tendency to make a dull area right above the sharpened edge, where the buff flexes and abrades the mirror polished blade. The cardboard wheel does not do that, if you hold the knife at the correct angle. Of course, you have to hold the blade at the correct angle when using the cloth buff, too.

Probably one reason you got such a negative reception for mentioning this method is because it is more suitable for a knife manufacturer or knife maker, or in a commercial sharpening business, as you had. Also, a large butcher shop or slaughter house would be another place such a set up would be useful.

Another reason is that most articles about knife sharpening caution you, "DO NOT USE A GRINDER ON A KNIFE BLADE." That is true, unless you know what you are doing, and have had proper training.

I just grind them til they turn blue, then I know I've gone far enough. You can just polish the blue color off.
Big Mortie taught me how.

My sympathy. I don't think there is an easy answer - though before he took off to go fishing I'd say ask at Ski's and somebody would have an easy answer maybe even useful.

No question that polishing an edge is the way professionals do it. There are many issues with that - some say using muslin will whip the loose threads back around the very edge and start dulling so as to limit ultimate sharpness for those who get too eager hold too close or push too hard or fail of just the right angle. If you can find a professional by all means pay to get it done - then maybe you can keep it that way.

To do it myself I'd buy a set of decent sized (large) diamond stones in the full range - I like A.G. Russell and I don't mind paying him a little more rather than searching for the cheapest price but Sportsman's Warehouse is a good source and they still have a store in Idaho Falls. Then I'd look at the edge under an OptiVisor or a loupe or whatever is handy and decide how much the edge needs to be thinned- if at all but most likely it does need it and quite a bit - Bob Hagel has a magazine piece someplace where he describes going through the same process with an evaluation knife and what a nuisance it was - then with an appropriately thinned blade start on the cutting edge. Plan to spend all day and into the night. In the alternative buy one of the better Magic Chef diamond based power sharpeners in the $100 range at Sportsman's Warehouse to thin the edge and it will still take a long time.



Sadly I can't buy whet stones or a sharpening system for anything like $10 or $20 I have a big surgical black hard Arkansas bench stone that cost as much as maybe a Baldor buffer at the time - and isn't even good for much in today's world of super steels and diamonds. Diamonds are a great bargain at today's prices for sure. Diamonds will start out much more aggessive then appear to dull as the diamonds settle in for the long run - this is not a failing but the normal pattern - and diamonds especially fresh diamonds give what some call a grabby edge which is OK for meat.

In sum look at the edge and consider thinning the blade behind the edge then either pay somebody or forget stones entirely and use diamonds all the way and Magic Chef will power the diamond process.

IDMilton
I have not used a Lansky (or any fixture style system)-- as I use bench stones and hand held method.

I do know that for 154CM --I heat treat to 59Rc and that allows them to be sharpened yet hold and edge for multiple animals.

To sharpen, you have to "lean" on the blade a little or you will be there forever and get almost nowhere.

Also for the final fine edge you should "open up" the angle a degree or two.

The fimal buff/stroop/polish process has as many variations and proponents of a given "best" method.

Due to steel used, heat treat, and blade geometry, some blades sharpen easy, some tough, many in between. So when you find what works for you, stay with it.
JMHO
Tim

I'm a relative rookie but after purchasing a knife sharpening system can see an obvious improvement in my edge quality. I'm lucky enough to have a microscope at my desk and this tells volumes regarding edge quality and wear. Even with my better sharpening jobs I continue to see multiple surfaces on the edge.

I'll try a cotton well and see what that looks like.

Will someone here describe a cardboard wheel? Is it merely a few sheets of everyday corrugate bonded together? Also, how important is the compound?

With many of the knives I've purchased and owned over the years, there is often a need for me to establish my own angle to the blade before I can generate what I consider a sharp edge. With the harder steels and finer oil stones, one can be there for days before adequate shaping occurs. I recently acquired an ulu that was relatively sharp, but had a rounded 25 to 30 degree angle running to the edge. The roundness was an issue for me, and I can't hold a consistent angle that size when using my bench stones. For me it simply needed some reshaping.

I'm a little quicker at seeing this now, and go to a carbide stone to establish that first edge. The diamond stuff is a little too aggressive for me, especially with smaller thinner blades. I then progress through maybe 3 grades of oilstones to my final edge. The last is a very dense stone, and ones edge takes on a polished look. Once that initial edge is established, subsequent sharpening is just a matter of touch up unless one really butchers things.

I'd suggest that one avoid power grinders unless he is well schooled, has a real feel for their use, or is rich enough to do some serious practice with such implements. It's quite easy to skew or overheat an edge. Out of need, industry obviously has to take the machine approach. I suspect new workers ruin quite a bit of product before becoming proficient though.

Again, establishing that initial edge may demand that a lot of metal be removed, and with hard steels that can be a job. Try a carbide bench stone for the first phases of your workup. I usually use water with the carbide units. Good luck, 1Minute

Boise:

I Googled card board wheels and came up with this. I bought mine at a knife show several years ago. I don't know who manufacturers them.

You might do a search under knife sharpening and also under knife making supplies. I think some knifemaking supliers carry them.

Rouge does make a difference. A small supply of white rouge came with mine, and after I used it up, I used white rouge from different companies, mostly Lea and Jackson. As mentioned earlier, I recently tried Green Chrome Rouge that I got from Arizona Knife and Gun Finishing supplies. It works best of all.

Arizona Knife and Gun might carry the Cardboard wheels. They are not plain couragated cardboard, but some type of quality pressed cardboard. The buffer I use turns them and 1725 RPM.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=plMbnQMQJMg

Thanks Robert, I'll have to give it a try after attempting an edge with my hard cloth wheel and some compound. I was pretty disappointed with my edge on my last outing and believe it was mine and not the knife's fault. I was using one of my one knives and had become accustom to using an Ingram.

I just looked at some of the vidios on the above link. There is no possible way I would have one of these wheels turning toward me or toward the cutting edge of the knife.

I hold the blade and the rotation of the wheel so that if the wheel grabs, it throws the blade away from me, not into me.

If anyone has ever had a cloth wheel on a 3450 RPM Baldor grab a sharp blade and sling it all around your shop, you know what I am talking about. You wonder how long it is going to keep ricochetting off the walls and ceiling.

A medium to coarse silicon carbide stone will re-profile 154CM at HRC 60 +/- 1 in a heartbeat..

Everyone, thanks for the responses.

I wasn't able to reply to any of the suggestions earlier, I just got back from elk hunting this afternoon and have been cutting mest. I'll try to get back on this forum Monday to read the posts.

I didn't take the 154 Gatoron this trip. I took the old Wyoming knife instead. I then broke the blade usinng it as a screwdriver. (I know) So this morning we used my friend's box cutter to gut, skin, quarter, and bone out the spike I got with my bow. (My first elk with a bow, I'm pumped! Of course, four minutes after I shot, a six point walked down the same trial...)

Anyway, I was wishing I had another blade for my knife, or I had brought a small screwdriver. My friend actually likes the box cutter because he can change blades. I weigh 160. I brought a 107 pound pack out over three miles. My feet are a little sore, but it was a great day!

I'll read through the advice and figure out how to get my blades better,
Thanks

I use a Lansky type system with pretty good results on various steels. Works well on an AUS8 knife, and the D2 knives also, though more difficult. In my opinion, ditch the "stones" and get the diamond and ceramic sharpeners instead. I use coarse diamond, fine diamond, then a ceramic hone and get shaving sharp edges usually.

I'd love to learn how to use the bench grinder/wheel method that many have mentioned. Just haven't had the time or resources to be able to do it yet.

Anyone have a good source of information to read up on the topic?

Buy a $35 1000/6000 grit combination waterstone and learn how to use it. It requires practice but waterstones are easier to learn since they cut faster and smoother than oilstones, with fewer strokes needed you have fewer chances to screw up. Eventually you'll get to where you can get a better edge than you can from polishing wheels, control the amount of "tooth" etc.
The wheels work best in a production situation with lots of blades to sharpen but require a lot of practice and can be quite dangerous if not used properly. Not only can they burn the temper right out of an edge but they can grab blades and fling them at high velocities in unpredictable directions - ask a few knifemakers and you'll hear stories.

I've tried most of the different sharpening methods and the price/performance ratio of a good combo waterstone is darned hard to beat - you just need a little practice to use them. But if you can count 1000 strokes on a V sharpener you should easily have more enough patience to learn to sharpen properly....................................DJ