24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 21 1 2 3 4 5 20 21
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,961
Likes: 54
T
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,961
Likes: 54
Originally Posted by Barak
We've already tried the whole Republic thing, and we've seen how it works and what happens to it. Other countries have tried it too, with the same result.
Yep, and we know from observation that houses (by the standard above) don't work either, so we shouldn't build them, and we shouldn't live in them. We should start living without any houses at all. I mean, after all, each and every house that has ever been built either has fallen, or inevitably will fall, into disrepair and then utterly collapse. Therefore we should all just live out in the open.

GB1

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,418
M
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
M
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,418
I certainly can't see how anarchy would by design handle an external aggressor such as Russia or China. Say for a moment that your utopia did somehow happen here in North America. And lets further say that the Chinese and Russians want "lebensraum" and the abundant natural resources that we have here. How is your anarchist society going to handle an invasion by those entities? With no Navy or National Guard or even a small standing army, how would we repel the invaders? Invite them in? Pay them off? Guerrilla war? To what point and under what leadership? I can tell you from a military POV that anarchy won't work in a military environment or in combat. Combat seems like anarchy, and can devolve into it if tactical control is lost, but there's usually a heirarchy of command to keep things moving along, and recover from or exploit mistakes.

How would a nuclear deterrent be created and maintained? Saying that it wouldn't be needed is to deny facts. Not having defense capabilities able to react within minutes to an external nuke threat sounds like national suicide or servitude, take your pick. If the new anarchist nation decided it was a good thing to have, who designs, pays for and maintains the systems? Individuals? So now we're back to feudalism. The individuals with the most money and means hire and acquire the best and most efficient defense/offense methods. Then they decide that they need something, and that something is held by another group who want too much for it, or don't want to sell it, so you have mini wars over resources.

Pete E makes a good point too. Roving bands of brigands will be able to take what they want when they want it, and unless you're willing to either pay to have a security force, or do it yourself, the society would be vulnerable to that. How do you maintain a defense against brigands and still work at whatever trade you have? Heck, even if you hired the security guards, they may decide to take over if they want to, and how do you counter that?

The closest thing to anarchy that I recall in recent history is the French Revolution, and that ended with Bonaparte.

I say again, as flawed as our Constitution may be, and as corrupted as the system into which it has devolved has become, your description of anarchy doesn't seem either realistic or palatable. It seems to me it would be much easier to try and fix the flaws we have and repair the system, than it would be to abandon it for something that, to me, seems utopian and unworkable given the nature of humanity.


If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks..., will deprive the People of all their Property,...Thomas Jefferson
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48,411
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48,411
Originally Posted by Barak
Originally Posted by Steve_NO
anybody who has any experience with a real system which, although far from perfect like all manmade things, functions pretty well can and will tell you that your proposal is unworkable in execution.

Go on...


Your private protection whatevers could not function, they couldn't underwrite the completely unknown risks, and you would have no knowledge of their solvency or way to enforce it if they defrauded you, so your premiums would be both ruinously expensive and probably wasted money anyway.

They idea of using private judges is so weird and wrong I can't even begin to list the problems. Maybe when I have more time and energy.

If it worked, Barak, somewhere in human history it would have worked. It hasn't. Empirical truth in the laboratory of thousands of years of human history calls BS on the theory.


Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,961
Likes: 54
T
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,961
Likes: 54
Originally Posted by mike762
I certainly can't see how anarchy would by design handle an external aggressor such as Russia or China. Say for a moment that your utopia did somehow happen here in North America. And lets further say that the Chinese and Russians want "lebensraum" and the abundant natural resources that we have here. How is your anarchist society going to handle an invasion by those entities? With no Navy or National Guard or even a small standing army, how would we repel the invaders? Invite them in? Pay them off? Guerrilla war? To what point and under what leadership? I can tell you from a military POV that anarchy won't work in a military environment or in combat. Combat seems like anarchy, and can devolve into it if tactical control is lost, but there's usually a heirarchy of command to keep things moving along, and recover from or exploit mistakes.

How would a nuclear deterrent be created and maintained? Saying that it wouldn't be needed is to deny facts. Not having defense capabilities able to react within minutes to an external nuke threat sounds like national suicide or servitude, take your pick. If the new anarchist nation decided it was a good thing to have, who designs, pays for and maintains the systems? Individuals? So now we're back to feudalism. The individuals with the most money and means hire and acquire the best and most efficient defense/offense methods. Then they decide that they need something, and that something is held by another group who want too much for it, or don't want to sell it, so you have mini wars over resources.

Pete E makes a good point too. Roving bands of brigands will be able to take what they want when they want it, and unless you're willing to either pay to have a security force, or do it yourself, the society would be vulnerable to that. How do you maintain a defense against brigands and still work at whatever trade you have? Heck, even if you hired the security guards, they may decide to take over if they want to, and how do you counter that?

The closest thing to anarchy that I recall in recent history is the French Revolution, and that ended with Bonaparte.

I say again, as flawed as our Constitution may be, and as corrupted as the system into which it has devolved has become, your description of anarchy doesn't seem either realistic or palatable. It seems to me it would be much easier to try and fix the flaws we have and repair the system, than it would be to abandon it for something that, to me, seems utopian and unworkable given the nature of humanity.
Your insurance company will repel the Russians for you. laugh

Sorry, Barak, I couldn't resist.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Problem is, the rule of law is implemented according to a Constitution, and according to Christian precedent.

From the Constitution springs all manner of laws. Laws are the mechanism by which the state controls it's subject.

Christian "law" completes the package, providing rulings on morality and God only knows what else. smile

Combine the Constitution (with it's accompanying body of law) with the Bible and whadaya get?

Big Fat [bleep] micro-managing GOVERNMENT.

Now, I'm no anarchist, and I must say that I think Barakistan is unrealistic.

But let's be real here. There will never be "small government" in America. Nobody truly wants it- not even those who pay lip service to the concept.

You may be the exception, TRH. But you know better than most that modern conservatism does NOT want small government! And the liberals sure as [bleep] don't.

Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Jeff_O
Seems like EVERYONE is a fan of big government.
laugh laugh So, you get the impression from my posts that I favor big government? You mean because I don't embrace the fantasy of a society where no one seeks to exercise unchecked and arbitrary power over the lives of other? The reality is that there will always be those willing and able to surround themselves with enough thugs to impose their unchecked will on the remainder of humanity. Give that system enough time to develop, and it becomes what we call The State. The solution to The State is to impose on it the rule of law. That process is called the institution of government. It's that simple.


The CENTER will hold.

Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two

FÜCK PUTIN!
IC B2

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043
I
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
I
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043
How are the medical/dental operations going to work?

You gonna have a MRI machine in that there Barakistan paradise of homeless,confused folks?


The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward




Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,418
M
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
M
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,418
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Your insurance company will repel the Russians for you. laugh

Sorry, Barak, I couldn't resist.


Mutual of Assured Destruction.


If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks..., will deprive the People of all their Property,...Thomas Jefferson
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,961
Likes: 54
T
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,961
Likes: 54
Originally Posted by Jeff_O
You may be the exception, TRH. But you know better than most that modern conservatism does NOT want small government! And the liberals sure as [bleep] don't.
By "modern conservatism" I assume you mean false or pseudo conservatism. Real conservatism is pretty much all about small, decentralized, government, restrained by the rule of law. I don't care what fake conservatives believe.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
If Barakistan existed, I'm for thinking the "free" country of America would soon enough conquer or undermine it. Can't have people living like that, don't you know. One of our big companies would get screwed in a business deal there, and we'd find a reason to send in the Marines. To establish the "rule of law" (parse THAT term!) and all...

And, with no disrespect intended towards our fine Marines, they'd say hoo-rah! And gladly storm that beach... In the name of freedom, of course.

And this would likely be done under the orders of "conservative, small-government" Americans.

No?


The CENTER will hold.

Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two

FÜCK PUTIN!
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
You're a smart guy, Barak. It's a shame that you waste all that brain power fantasizing about things that cannot, in light of reality, possibly be. You'd be a real benefit to the cause of restoring the Republic established by the Founding Fathers.


i enjoy the hell out of Baraks thoughts.....even if i dont agree with what he says all the time.....unlike asome ppl he does put alot of thought into his posts and does truely seem to be interested in what individuals have to say about his ideas to point out stuff he hasnt thought of yet.....

as far as using brain power to fantasize bout what wont be....i think just about all of us are guilty of that....in all reality Barakistan wont be happening but neither will me winning the lottery but its fun to think about and threads like this are alot more educational.....


A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
IC B3

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
TRH, my problem with the "rule of law" is that the Law is so damn... Plastic. It's malleable. It's situational, contextual, arguable... And in the end, the result is citizens ruled BY a bunch of laws, not laws constraining governmental power.

Because, who OWNS the law, practically speaking? The government in all it's bloated glory. A conservative government will apply the same body of law differently than a liberal government- which is proof of what I'm saying, right there...

It's putting the fox in charge if the henhouse...


The CENTER will hold.

Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two

FÜCK PUTIN!
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043
I
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
I
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043
i enjoy the hell out of Baraks thoughts
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

And he thinks those thoughts without Hallucinogenics, as well!

I only met one other man who thought like him but he was on the inside!


The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward




Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605
i understand his thought process.....might not agree with some of it.....some of it i would prefer over what we have.....i grew up as part of a huge family....rough figuring is i have over 100 first and second cousins.....most of my family is highly opinionated....im used to listening to ppl whos beliefs are different than mine....if they put some thought behind them im more inclined to listen more......

Barak has put alot of thought into this....its what he honestly believes is best.....but most importantly he really isnt an arse about it it and encourages ppl to put thoughts into arguments to try and prove the jist of what he is saying is wrong cause he WANTS to see any holes in his theories....

one thing to keep in mind is he has openly shared that he is autistic or has autistic tendencies(i forget which) so its a solid bet his thought process is different from most....push comes to shove he is less of an arse bout how he presents his self and his ideas than some on here i agree with more.....


A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,945
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,945

Bob,

You don't have to be on LSD to agree with Barak's vision of utopia,but it would have to help. grin

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
I think, to be fair, that Sean should flesh out HIS ideal government/fantasy country a little.

Call it Nimrodia. smile Lets say it borders Barakistan. How would Supreme Ruler Sean handle, for example, a border dispute? Or an argument over a river that both share?

How would Barakistan handle Nimrodian guerillas intent on morphing it into a Nimrodian sister state? We know Sean is very pro-military... Gotta think he'd have and USE a strong military.

When oil is discovered in Barakistan, what happens? Nimrodia needs oil.

Seems like governments are kind of like guns... Or neighborhood Mafia "protection". If the other guys have some, well, you'd better get some too.



The CENTER will hold.

Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two

FÜCK PUTIN!
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,945
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,945

Rattler,

Now I get it,Barak is rainman,of sorts.

A savant.

If the world were full of Baraks,then Barakistan would work.

Trouble is,the world is not full of well intentioned gentle souls like Barak and Penny.


Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
I think it's interesting that the main reason most of us seem to think that Barakistan won't work, is because of Nimrodia. Figuratively speaking.

Powerful evidence of Barak's assertion that State is evil.


The CENTER will hold.

Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two

FÜCK PUTIN!
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043
I
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
I
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 62,043
Persuasively powerful,for sure. If you're 7 years old.

There's probably a better way to lure out your idol than by the "stalk with stupid posts" method.


The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
William Arthur Ward




Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,833
AFP Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,833
An institution cannot be good or evil. Only people are evil. If people weren't evil, then almost ANY form of government would work...............

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 12,895
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 12,895
Originally Posted by rattler
i understand his thought process.....might not agree with some of it.....some of it i would prefer over what we have.....i grew up as part of a huge family....rough figuring is i have over 100 first and second cousins.....most of my family is highly opinionated....im used to listening to ppl whos beliefs are different than mine....if they put some thought behind them im more inclined to listen more......

Barak has put alot of thought into this....its what he honestly believes is best.....but most importantly he really isnt an arse about it it and encourages ppl to put thoughts into arguments to try and prove the jist of what he is saying is wrong cause he WANTS to see any holes in his theories....

one thing to keep in mind is he has openly shared that he is autistic or has autistic tendencies(i forget which) so its a solid bet his thought process is different from most....push comes to shove he is less of an arse bout how he presents his self and his ideas than some on here i agree with more.....


Well put rattler...Although I rarely agree with Barak, I do recognise he is a highly intellegent and a very interesting individual. Both he and Penny come across as very decent, people and even though we share a different perspective on life, I would be happy to share supper with them and listen to their thoughts..

Regards,

Peter

Page 3 of 21 1 2 3 4 5 20 21

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24

560 members (12344mag, 17CalFan, 10gaugemag, 10gaugeman, 19rabbit52, 10ring1, 58 invisible), 2,106 guests, and 1,254 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,194,086
Posts18,521,930
Members74,024
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.119s Queries: 55 (0.032s) Memory: 0.9318 MB (Peak: 1.0556 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-05-19 03:26:41 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS