Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Paper patching slugs

To put another perspective on my long winded late night post, it comes down to priorities.

A hunter may carefully assemble relatively few rounds. I'll bet somebody planning to hunt African game with a Sharps pays a lot of attention to detail.

If I'm going to a big match I'll need upwards of 200 rounds, all of which have to be of consistent high quality. Time consuming as handloading is, I'm always looking for ways to make it more efficient.

It's really no different from someone loading modern centerfire hunting ammo on a single stage press vs. a highpower or pistol competitor using a progressive press. Not to mention those $300 case trimmers!

Paul

I still shoot factory fodder exclusively; but I have to admit, this has been a fascinating thread to read.

No way this thread should bleed out,....gasp it's last,....

Fer' Cryin' out LOUD,

....we haven't even begun to discuss some of the finer nuances of

this,...."nekkid' or 'wrapped up' racket.

Gettin' particular here ET,

The recomended booze for cleaving to these stunts,....$80 U.S. here.

Small Beans,....if it will help with my ammo rolling,....suitably advise.

Photos avail. on chort notice.

GTC

Not Chure,....here,....

Chort Notice,....V.

.....chort chambers,.........V

Needing to "Stretch" your brass, so you don't get,....

I know,....let's fly to Bangkok and get loaded,

alla this other crap'll settle.

And the rifles discussed will continue to deliver enviable accuracy,

......assuming the operator knows whether his azz is punched, Bored, or Ate out,....by a Magpie.

I love youze' guys,.....I can Write / Tap like this here, and not get run off.

Think( if ya'll haven't already) 1500Yd. sight settings.

How ridiculous, to even suggest that,........

Yup,

GTC

Paul,the 19th century match shooters din't use the lube disc either. In fact, a set of instructions from the Sharps Company advised the comp shooter to use a piece of NEWSPRINT for the over powder wad. I think the main difference is that many comp men run a bore hog through quite frequently (and 19th century instructions appear to bear this out) whereas the hunter (back then or now) does not. Keeping the fouling soft for a long string of buffalo killing shots seems to require more lube that helps that. I do it because it makes it easier to run a dry patch down the pipe and get most of the offending fouling out with ease. I actually don't have to run a patch down the bore for at least 10 shots, Sharpsguy gets a lot more. But he is WAAAAY ahead of me on this.

Yep, that's been my understanding.

The buffalo herd shoots at Ackley, IA require 25 shots in about 10 minutes. That doesn't allow for using a blow tube or swab, certainly not between every shot. Most of us use lube cookies. I can get off 25 shots without blowing or swabbing. I sacrifice a bit of accuracy with my cookie loads, but that's a reasonable trade off.

There's a thread about paper patch bullets going on at the Shiloh forum right now. Talk about complexity! Those guys really know their stuff, but it's too technical for me. Maybe some day...

Paul

Paul, you just hit the nail on the head as to what I was referring to about "complexity". The old time buff hunters kept it to what worked best for killingmillions of buffler and simple nuff to do in the field nite after nite.The old time comp men and todays comp men both look for the way to pefection in their technique 'cuz fractions of fractions of an inch makes the difference to them. For guys like me, the results are currently in the oven smelling scrumptious!!! I LOVE that moose meat!!!

There is a lot of mental masturbation and speculating going on over there, too. I frankly refuse to wipe every shot like those boys do. Re inventing the wheel is hard work.

The original Sharps factory sold ammunition by the thousand round case, and shipped thousands of those cases to the sutlers on the western frontier. The overwhelming majority of this ammunition was paper patched, and it had to shoot accurately in every rifle chambered for it, which it did. It also had to shoot accurately for twenty or more consecutive shots without wiping or a man could lose his life due to a jammed rifle. It also did this.

Paper patched ammo is inherently satisfying to shoot, for some reason. I can load 45 rounds of grease groove ammo in 52 minutes, but it takes 2 1/2 hours to load 45 rounds of paper patch. I can't say that the paper patched ammo is significantly more accurate than the greasers, but the difference is definitely there, at least in my hunting rifles.

ET has a great moose kill to his credit. If that old rifle of his could talk, there is no telling what it could tell us. I have taken three American buffalo and many of the large plains antelope in South Africa with paper patched bullets using both the 45-70 and a 45-110 Sharps, and I have yet to recover a single bullet or lose an animal.

Is it addictive? You bet. And I love it.

I wonder if bullet shape and tolerances were/are part of it? My Paul Jones Creedmoors are a bore riding design, and won't chamber unless I blow tube or wipe. My Brooks Postell bullets are much more tolerant, and can usually go several shots before chambering becomes difficult.

Did the original Sharps have a bit of freebore?

Paul

The original Sharps did not have freebore. Their chambers and barrels were cut to take paper patched bullets. Grease grooved bullets required a different chamber dimension and throat configuration .

I probably used the term freebore incorrectly. I believe the early (Farmingdale) Shilohs were throated similar to the originals.

There are undoubtably optimal configurations depending on whether the rifle is intented to shoot paper patched bullets or greasers, but I understand that PP will work in the current production Shilohs. I'll find out next season.

Paul

Paul--The early Farmingdale had a "freebore" that was nowhere near the original chamber configuration. Mr. Droge had a misguided notion of what a chamber to shoot paper patch should look like, and frankly screwed up a lot of barrels and caused a lot of guys a tremendous amount of angst and frustration.

Why he didn't take an original and do a chamber cast and copy it is beyond me. Now a couple of guys, led by Orville Loomer, have done just that. They have had chamber reamers made to cut these original configuration chambers, and they are smaller in diameter at the case mouth than a standard chamber, and have a quite different leade angle.

I have a 15 pound Shiloh 45-90 cut with that chamber reamer, and it is EXTREMELY accurate. It will only accept paper patched ammunition, a grease grooved round will not chamber.

A standard chamber can usually be made to shoot paper patched ammo fairly well, but the loading procedure requires that you adhere to some very narrow guidelines to make it work. Most guys with standard chambers get creative with their loading and step out of the box and don't get good results as a consequence.

You raise a question for me Bill. My original will chamber and shoot the Lyman 193 and the 125 bullets but factually they shoot like crap outta my rifle. What you just said may have a lot to do with that. It shoots paper patch ammunition just dandy.

For one newly wetted to this whole endeavor, the pics and the discussion around it are priceless.

ET, your pics just cut months, if not more, off my learning curve. Thank you.

I know that there are other ways to skin this cat, and that I'll likely develop my own, but seeing the cat skinned, quickly, easily, in detail, and as per appropriate for hunting goodness, is worth more than can be said.

BTW - GOEX distributor is located 30 minutes from the house, I can pick up from them, and FFg Express runs $17/pound.

Uh oh............

That is exactly what I was aiming for VA. If they flatten out a few learning curves then my objective has been achieved.

Ditto.

Very interesting about the chambers and throats. Pedersoli has their own ideas about throating as well. Awhile back there was a mould designed for a "Pedersoli bullet" that was circulated around among several shooters for a test. I don't know what became of the project. I had a Pedersoli for a short while, and it shot the Lyman 457125 Govt. bullet just fine. It was a good rifle, but the stock didn't work for me, and an opportunity to buy a used Shiloh came up.

VA, that sounds like a good price for the GOEX Express. Last time I bought some it was $18 or $19, IIRC

Paul

Have to agree with VAnimrod. Very informative thread. Good for those of us just getting into this.

Paul, how's about you adding to this thread on loading up GG bullets!! Give the guys an idea of proper sizing, alloy, compression, wad...and tilt it towards hunting type ammunition. I'd ask Sharpsguy, but he is a paper patch man mostly. He has dial up too so pictures would be too time consuming for him to post. How's about it? Do ya want to help this thread become a really decent learning tool for the guys who want to use a coal burner to lay out tasty critters???

Can do, but no sense reinventing the wheel. For starters it's hard to improve on Chuck Raithel's primer of a few years back. Like I said early in the other thread, I don't agree with all of it, but it's pretty darned good.

http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/Introduction%20to%20BPCR%20Loading.pdf

I sent VA a brief synopsis of my loading procedure, and as soon as I can get my wife's assistance I'll post it here as an attachment. Haven't figured out how to do that myself yet. Edited: See BPCR Basics thread.

I'm no guru on hunting ammo, but the general principle is to use a softer alloy, like 40/1, and a flat or blunt nosed bullet. Not a tight bore rider like the Creedmoor I mentioned earlier. The main difference otherwise boils down to tolerances; you don't want to have to push and jam to chamber a round when said tasty critter comes on the scene. Just as with modern rifles, tight usually produces optimal accuracy, but at the expense of easy loading of the rifle and repeat shots.

Those other factors you mentioned are really a matter of choice and what works best in a particular rifle. 20/1 or 30/1 alloy, depends. You get a bit more diameter with more tin. .030 or .060, fiber or LDPE (plastic) wads? Again, not critical. Compression can be important, but each load and rifle will have it's own preferences. The main thing with black is to make sure there is no air space between powder and bullet.

Sizing. I've never FL sized a straight case, even new brass, but there are those who do it every loading. I just neck size with an inexpensive Lyman neck die.

BTW, I use .45-70 dies to load my .45-90. Work fine for me, and a bit less expensive than buying dedicated .45-90 dies. I do use a Redding Competition seater, again a .45-70 although I believe Redding makes a special .45-90 version for Buffalo Arms.

There are others who post here who have lots of knowledge, and I'm sure they'd welcome questions as well.

I'd also suggest a new thread, Black Powder Basics.

Paul