Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders I need some opinions

I do not own a ML. I was invited on a ML Elk hunt and was loaned a rifle. I had a lot of fun and am seriously considering applying for ML hunts in the future. Probably just what a lot of you guys don't want to hear. Anyway, I will be hunting here in Oregon and in Colorado. Forgive me if I butcher terminology. In both States I have to have open ignition and iron sights. My friends swear by their Rem 700's and I was loaned a Knight. The Knight was much lighter than the Remington's and that appeals to me except I am a Remington guy. Since I'm a pilgrim as far as ML go, I'd like some advice about what rifle to buy. Thanks, Ken

colorado does not require open ignition.

There are a lot of older models still on the market that will do the job. Maybe even a sidelock will fit the bill!

See if you can find a White Whitetail Hunter 97 in .504 caliber (in great condition). Can't beat 'em.

Doc has one on his website http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/images/whiterifles/prod04.htm #645 is the one I'm looking at.

#642 is an Ultra Mag and worth a look as well.

Flinters and caplocks are more fun. In fact, they're more of everything.

You might want to ask yourself, if you are really interested in real muzzleloaders, or are you just looking for a another season to hunt.

If all you want to do is take advantage of the eairly hunting season, then you will probably want one of those new inline wonders, maybe even with a scope, and you can even use smokeless powder if you buy a Savage inline.

But if you really want to experience muzzleloading like our forefathers did, using real honest to goodness, muzzleloaders, then look for a caplock, or if you really want to get the most out of it, get a custom flintlock.

My suggestion!

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...dex&indexId=cat601141&hasJS=true

If you're hunting Oregon, other than maybe ease of cleaning, inlines have nothing to offer over a sidelock because of the limitations banning scopes, fiber optic sights, shotgun primers, pelletized powders, saboted bullets, and so on for muzzleloader-only hunts. (You can use your 209-ignited inlines in regular rifle season if you want.)

A few years ago, I would have said you should track down a TC Renegade in .54 for elk. I've had problems getting the Renegades to shoot now that TC is putting the QLA system on them. I'd look real hard at a .54 Lyman Great Plains Hunter. You want the GPH, not the GPR, because the faster twist will handle conical bullets. Otherwise, I'd say look at custom rifles.

Next up probably would be the Cabela's sporterized hawken rifles. They seem solid. One of the shops here has some Traditions rifles. They feel pretty cheap and cheesy to me.

Tom

If you decide to buy a "traditional" ML (not an in-line) regardless of the brand and model you buy, if you're going to hunt ELK, get at least a .54 caliber rifle.

While a .50 caliber in-line using a 245 grain or 295 grain saboted hollow-point bullet with at least 100 grains of powder is plenty of "elk medicine". My 2 sons both shoot three 50 grain "disks" (equal to 150 grains of powder) in their .50 caliber in-lines with a 295 grain bullet.

To bring down an elk with a traditional ML (percussion cap or flintlock), you should seriously consider a .54 caliber or even a .58 caliber ML which will do a more SURE job of taking down an elk which tend to be considerably more tough to bring down than a deer.

Jus' my 2�...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Ron points out one of the reasons I do not like inlines and sabots. Lightweight sub-caliber bullets handicap them unnecessarily from a ballistic standpoint. I also think .50 caliber is big enough if you shoot conventional lead conicals. If you want to go with a round ball gun, then yes, larger caliber is appropriate.

Did I mention that BP smells better than substitutes?

245 & 295gr powerbelt is not recommended for elk, especially with 100gr powder! 3 pellet loads are even worse.

Ditto to UC's rcmd. 70grs or so of swiss fffg, 460 gr. conical (No Excuses or Bullshop), wad, RWS 1075. Outfit rifle with a Lyman 57 and rock on. I'll be using this combo in a S91 next month in our 100M hunt.

Charlie

I take exception to sabots not making the grade;I shoot 250 gr. barnes TMZ (.451) out of my .50 CVA KODIAK 209 MAGNUM; Its dead on at 150 yds. It shoots 1-1.5 groups with 110 gr. of 777 (LOOSE); It's a killer; It's also CONSISTANT at that range with the BARNES bullet; I worked this round up, and it's really on; I shot powerbelts, and they suck; no accuracy; You guys that have to shoot conicals need to got to R&P muzzleloading on the net;
they are THE ones to fix you up! GOOD LUCK!!

you guys are out to lunch;
no.1 I shoot a CVA KODIAK 209 PRO MAGNUM .50 cal; (28 in. bbl)
no.2 I shoot a 250 gr.,.451 BARNES TMZ; (with sabot, of course)
no.3 I shoot 110 gr. of 777 loose;

Its dead on at 150 yds. (2.56 in. high at 100 yds);
It shoots 1-1.5 in. groups;

doesn't get much better than that;

CALIBRATED muzzle velocity = 2106 fps from a 24" bbl

estimated + 150-250 fps from 28" bbl

go figure;

Mike, I think you're missing a couple of points along the way. Nobody said inlines sucked or the sabot bullets couldn't kill anything. What was said is that conventional ML rifles with lead conicals are better. Actually, it does get a lot better if one is willing to see past the hype and mass hysteria. Sometimes one has to age a bit before these things become evident. My guess is you're a younger fella and if that's correct you may not realize the remarkable and broad capabilities of conventional ML rifles.

I know a number of folks that are best served with inlines during the hunting season, mostly because they are never going to look beyond the instruction book or think beyond the next scheduled meal. I don't denigrate them for their path and take poorly to your assertion that us guys are out to lunch.

How do you think your rifle would do at 300 yards?

save 300 yard shots for a centerfire

Ever since some dirtbag stole myt TC Thunderhawk,I have owned Knights.Can't go wrong with them IMHO.
BTW I like the D.I.S.C. best.

Well, you can and probably should with inline ballistics I suppose. When one assumes velocity is all and ignores external ballistics, it is best to keep the range short.

http://www.lrml.org/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl

What also may have been missed in OP was the geographics: OR and Col. Can't speak to Col. but here in OR sabots, pellets, 209's, and scopes don't fly during our MZ season.

edited to reflect: some inlines have been designed to shoot heavy conicals using a #11 ignition system, with open sights, not really much different than "traditional" rifles, jest look different...

Charlie

ps: DigitalDan, I believe we have an obnoxious child amongst us.

Perhaps. When I was younger I knew a lot that I don't now. The Force was with me then, today I have only my wits...and greater appreciation that the faster we go, the behinder we get.

Dunno why but this reminds me of Adobe Wells. Sittin' on the skyline can be hazardous to your health....

Nice target by the way. 40 rods and you probably should make the NRC shoot in Cody next June. String measure, 20 and 30 shots last year. Both victors ran sub MOA strings for record in 10-15 mph quartering wind.