Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Full curl sheep

Here's a pretty good bighorn ram...to put it in perspective I'm 6' 1" and weigh 205. This is one of the largest rams ever out of Montana...203 5/8" B&C. It was found dead in SW Montana.

Mr. jds44;
I�ll address what would usually happen here in British Columbia, but I�ll say up front I have no idea how it would be dealt with in other areas.

Here in BC, compulsory inspection is required for all mountain goat, mountain sheep � all species, grizzly bear, cougar and caribou. As well some regions require inspection of lynx, wolverine, wolf, bobcat, elk and moose.

So if the hunter shoots an undersized animal and realizes it immediately, they are required to cancel their tag, gut it, cover or protect the carcass and then report it to the Conservation Officer as soon as possible or practical to do so.

The investigating CO will ask the hunter a series of questions to ascertain if they exercised due diligence before they shot, for example how does one tell a � curl ram, where is your spotting scope and binoculars, where did you spot and or shoot the animal from, how long you took before shooting, etc.

If it is deemed an honest mistake, the hunter will forfeit the animal and because the tag is cancelled, will in most cases be unable to get another tag that year. If it is a limited entry tag, it will be next time they get drawn.

If the hunter is unable to make a case for due diligence, they will forfeit the animal and have a fine levied. I can�t really guess what amount that might be these days, sorry. It might still vary by species and by how much one missed the legal length by, but I�m not sure.

Many of our local California rams will never make full curl and in fact some wonderful ancient broomed rams wouldn�t make � curl, which is likely why our local LEH for sheep is now any ram.

Hopefully that was some use to you. Good luck on your upcoming hunts.

Regards,
Dwayne

Thanks fellas,I didnt realize that the game laws were open to so much "interpretation",we only have "seasons" we can shoot as many of whatever we wish .

yukonel
I would say the horns in the top picture would easily go full curl?

SS
Stud...

When you hold him in your hand and look up close, he doesn't quite go.

UKDave
Look at the curl through a round orifice and you will see the curl is "squashed" by the angle of the photo. Rotating the horns so they curl rounds up to a perfect circle will show they are off considerably more than it would appear.
art

Oh, no such thing as "due diligence" with AK troopers on game law violations... If you turn yourself in for a violation they will hammer you harder than if you get caught hiding something.

In addition to a ticket/fine there will be forfeiture of the game and possibly gun and related gear... An ddo not get caught transporting it in your own airplane or it will fly away on its own, too...
art

So AK law encourges you to hide a screwup rather than admit your mistake and not leave an animal laying in the field? That's just brilliant, ain't it?

Boggles the mind, yes...

[quote=jds44]So AK law encourges you to hide a screwup rather than admit your mistake and not leave an animal laying in the field?

That was going to be my next question.
Would somebody,anybody? hand them selves in if they thought they could lose all there hunting priviliges given the remoteness of most sheep hunting areas and the general lack of people who could "grass" on them? Given where the sheep live i would have thought that sheep country would be one of the best places for the a "SSS"


I told you all i new nothing about sheep horns!!!

In Ak, if you turn yourself in, you will be fined but not loose your gear. If you are caught trying to hide an illegal kill, or worse yet, leave it laying there and don't salvage the meat, then you will loose our gear, up to everything you used from the minute you walked out hte front door of your house.

The point is, if you make a mistake, man up and turn yourself in, the fine can hurt, but nothing like loosing your truck, boat, plane, ATV, guns, glass, so on.

That's in direct conflict with the info Art just posted above...

Mr. UK Dave;
Sometimes the regulations can lead to a fair bit of humor while up on the mountain and if not there hopefully one can laugh about it later.

For instance where we hunt locally, elk must have at least 6 points on one antler to be legal, a point being a tine that protrudes no less than 2.5cm from the main beam. I called in a very large bodied bull that sported the highest and widest rack I�ve seen outside a national park. We had a nice chat for about 10-15 minutes where he�d go into the brush, I�d call him back out and recount his tines and he�d become bored with what I had to say and leave. I�m not sure I could even count the number of times I counted up to 5 on that old boy, but so help me he would not make 6 no matter how hard I tried.

Another time a family friend was up mule deer hunting with my wife and I. It was her turn to shoot and we�d spotted a dandy wide racked alpine dweller. There we 3 were glassing this old boy feeding with a couple does perhaps 250yards away.

The deer were blissfully unaware of our presence as we lay behind a small greasewood brush trying to agree on whether the 4th point on his left antler made 2.5cm. The right was only a big 3 so there was no making legal minimum on that side.

The buck would turn one way and my friend and I would say, �Yes its legal�, then he�d turn another and we�d say, �No it doesn�t make it.�

This went on for some time and finally my wife turned to us and said, �Look if you guys can�t decide for sure then there�s no way I�m shooting. If one of you wants him go for it, but I�m out.�

As she always was the bright one of the trio we left the wide 3 point and his girlfriends alone to whatever they were up to and left.

Point restrictions and horn curl might sound like a hassle, but you actually get used to it pretty fast. There are a few animals taken accidentally every year, but overall it�s not that tough a restriction to abide by.

Good luck on your upcoming hunts.

Regards,
Dwayne

And he is wrong and I can give plenty of examples... There was study published a number of years ago where punishments for game crimes were compared and those turning themselves in were treated worse than the runners.

There is absolutely no property protection afforded those turning themselves in... And I believe it is contrary to the best interests of AK law enforcement...
art

If you turn yourself in, I would not transport it without written
authorization. I know of to many cases where honest hunters were punished for disclosing all and assisting.

Where do you think the Troopers get all the planes & boats?
Hunt around the Park circus and Federal law enforcment areas and your views will change on how you are treated, IMHO. Lots of good law enforcement people but courts do not seem to take a honest mistake into consideration, with the willing help from the law.
It also seems that the F&G in AK can,t determine how old a 8 year legal Ram is. Based on the diferent personell at F&G doing the Ram sealing. Look at AK Outdoors hunting forum, under the hunting section, for examples of different F&G determing if it was legal or not.

Pressure on Rams in AK is intense and increasing each year!

Competition for limited Rams with limited access, has its problems! Generally the group with the most money will get the resource.

I got this information straight from a retired state trooper/wildlife division supervisor that I worked with a few years ago. Also got the same info at a sportsman show seminar given by a lawyer specializing in defending wildlife crimes. I've never tested the info so I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

A couple of things here.
In California, and other states you are required to carry a spotting scope of at least 15X, and pass an identiification test as to what makes a legal ram and what doesn't. With both of these in place, under sized/too young a sheep are pretty rare.
Another good trick, if youy get a chance to view the side of the head, is to note not just the horn mass, but if the horns curl below the jaw. And, of course, counting the annual rings. E

Utah has gone to any ram. Of course they hold an meeting and invite all tag holders to attend where they try and educate you as to what a mature ram is.

Here is my Desert Bighorn that is 10 years old and very heavily broomed back


Versus this 6 year old Rocky Mountain that shows almost no brooming.


So there is a big difference in the habitat, the genetics and the species of sheep. Rockies have bigger horns than Desert Bighorns. Desert Bighorns broom much more than the Rockies. And there is no shame in harvesting an old desert ram that has heavily broomed horns. The original gene pool of desert bighorns in Utahs San Rafael has a smaller very tight curls. vs the bighorns that have been imported back into the state to help re-establish sheep on the mountain.

When the Dept of Wildlife plugged my horns, they aso collected dna so they could test to see if my desert ram came from the original gene pool or the transplanted sheep. They have worked hard to try and keep the two species of sheep seperated from each other.

Actually, the guy killing the underage sheep is doing the herd a favor... The full curl rule was poorly thought out and anything but better for the sheep...

Killing the old mature leaders leaves the herd leaders as younger rams with far less experience; causes much younger rams to start rutting and literally damaging themselves far earlier than in a stable herd with a true Alpha ram.

The ram BW shot a few years ago had obvious signs of fighting hard at under 5 years. If there had been more mature rams around he would not have even noticed the rut. No way a young ram is going to take on a true mature ram.

Among the consequences of breeding at such a young age is reduced growth during that earlier age when growth is usually fastest... Which leads to smaller bodied and horned rams over time (statistics show that to be the case with Chugach rams now). Also, more sheep fail to survive the winter due to the breeding hardships. Some are also killed during the rut, especially when younger rams get involved with the head butting.

The herd has a lot invested in a full curl ram and killing one is a major thing for the herd control. A 3/4 curl is much cheaper for the herd to replace.
art

Argali 1-1/2 curl....heh.



Marco Polo 1-1/2+ curl.

Here's an Argali from the Alaska Range