Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Christ at the Campfire Is America the Babylon refered to in Jeremiah 51?

RickyD, Those who willingly or thru ignorance serve the spirit of antichrist are not serving God nor Christ.

Your inferences try to paint me as some nazi anti-semite when I am Christ's and simply direct you or anyone else to the truth..Am I now your enemy because I have asked you to look at the truth?


The fact that you persist in clinging to the spirit of error doesn't speak too well of your knowlege of Christ or the word.

Read the scriptures I posted and argue with the Holy Spirit of God and His Word ..for they define plainly the spirit of truth and spirit of error as it concerns Israel's position before God during this time of blindness.

Christ is the way the truth and the life.No man cometh unto the Father but by Christ.You know the hallmarks of those who are Christs both in confession, profession and life.

As I said earlier, those who have not or will not accept Christ are presently owned by satan the god of this world..
He is their 'god' and master by default if not willingly.

So it is with any nation, individual, creed, religion.

IF you truly want to support Israel in their present blind state, devote your efforts to prayer and evangelism, not politics or some nonsensical neo-fundamentalism that puts the jew and the Christian together as those who are serving God ..

As Paul said, they are enemies as it concerns the Gospel, yet beloved of God as it concerns the election..

Until that time comes when they turn to Christ, they are outside the camp and in darkness..They need to be born again in order for them as a people or individually to have any access to the Father..Verse 31 speaks of the Christian's evangelism to the jews.jim

Romans 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.


Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.


Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:


Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.


Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!


Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?


Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?


Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

As a note,
You might consider getting your passport and visa and traveling to Israel and attempt to openly preach Jesus Christ crucified to the jews.

You will be prohibited from doing so by the government...jim

Hey Jim,

I am a Jew, or a Hebrew depending on how you look at things.

I must say I take extreme offense at your implication that ONLY what YOU believe can possibly be right and true.

Well here's a couple of eye openers for you:

A: First of all and most importantly: Jesus was a Jew. A very religious one too. Period End. He preached Judaism, nothing more, nothing less. Certainly not Christianity. What religious Jew would be so bold as to claim himself the only way to the Father ? NONE !!

Did you ever stop to think that your New Testament was written in a way to A: Make it easy as all get out NOT to be Jewish, and B: Frighten the crap out of you spiritually so as to unquestioningly believe everything in your texts ??

B: Where was this world peace that G-d promised His chosen people that would exist with the coming of the Messiah ???

Certainly not during Jesus' lifetime, what with the Romans busy making war and conquering etc.

Oh, yeah, that's right, there will be a second coming because the world wasn't ready the first time.

Hooey, the world would have cherished peace and the coming of the true Messiah.

These are a couple of reasons why WE don't believe as YOU do. We are not blind, not unsaved, not condemned or any other thing your texts have convinced you to believe.

If you think that Christians have the monopoly on G-d's kingdom, well, I guess we will see about that.

In the mean time, I will believe as I wish, I will encourage you and everyone else to believe as they wish, but I will NEVER put you or your beliefs down and I expect the same from you.

Now who is not behaving as a Christian ?!?!?!

Ranger

Rifleranger, As a jew or hebrew the preaching of Christ crucified will seem to be foolishness and offensive.


My heritage is also that of an Israelite, tho not of the tribe of Judah.
My ancestors met Yahshua Messiah over 250 years ago and since then have come to the Creator of all life though Him.
He is the true lamb without spot or blemish and it is His blood that was sprinkled upon the mercy seat over 2000 years ago as a true atonement for all who will repent and accept the new life he offers.

Torah speaks of Him as do the prophets, yet when He came he was rejected even as Esais foretold.

The natural man cannot receive the Torah of God however, for all He has to show us is spiritually discerned..

One day according to the fullness of time spoken of by the prophets, Israel will be saved..You need not wait until that entire remnant has the truth revealed to them however.

Now is an acceptable time and today could be your day of salvation. ....jim
Speaking specifically of Israel, the Apostle Paul ( a jew of the tribe of Benyamin who studied Torah under Gamaliel but was converted to the gospel of Christ crucified) described the present position of Israel:


Romans 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.


Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rifleranger,
Thanks for posting. Sorry for the offensive turn this post has taken. It is partially my fault, and I do apologize.

Would you be willing to share your views a bit more fully on Christianity? You mention some aspects that I never considered, understandably. To be honest I have never had the opportunity to discuss at any length the perceived merits and detractions of my faith with a man from your faith. It would certainly be understood that you do not speak for all of Judaism and I don't speak for all of Christianity (like somebody does!), but two unknown potential friends sharing their faith. No attempts at any conversion, just conversation and communication.

Rick

Ricky, it would be my pleasure to share my opinions and beliefs with anyone willing to listen. However, I have come to find that when people say "Never discuss money, politics, and religion with friends", it makes sense, and I wish to be friends, however anonymous.
In a nutshell, it is my belief that Jesus did indeed exist and as a Rabbi. I do not believe in the virgin birth as from what I have learned, Mary was unwed when Joseph got her pregnant.
This was kept hush-hush, but evolved into a spectacular story of virgin impregnation by none other than G-d.
We must bear in mind the mindset and knowledge level of the people of those times. We must remember that the whole story of Jesus was occuring during times where no conscript or soldier would have second thoughts about skewering, stabbing, hacking, or braining an adversary, all without the conscience that these are particularly gruesome ways to kill enemies. In other words, unenlightened for the most part. And this is everybody, Jews and all.
The Jews were the only monotheistic religion at that time, Buddhism existed, but primarily, paganism was the theme.
When early Christianity began to take root, it is my belief that stories of "My G-d is better than your G-d" became a norm in the pursuit of converts.
Man oh man, how much easier it is to be a Christian than to live the laws of Moses. What spectacular stories about resurrection, walking on water, turning water into wine, and of course, the virgin birth.
I believe that the apostles anger for the crucifixion of Christ was inappropriately directed at the Jewish faith, and anything that could be done to draw the pagans or any other convert in to this new faith was done.
The texts then not only had to be spectacular, but had to be unquestionable. For example, you don't believe in Jesus, no heavenly reward. Plain and simple.
Anyway, I will go on another time as I have to get home.
But I hope that my thoughts do not cause you any discomfort, only that perhaps there are other ways to salvation.
Be well and G-d bless.
Ranger

You might want to consider using Gal. and Eph. in your arguement. The "oneness" of Church.

Otherwise, i'm staying out of this one....

Hebrews 4:9
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.


Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.


Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Hbr 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.


Hbr 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.


Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.


Hbr 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.



Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:


Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

I have felt that Rev. 18 strongly represents America as I see it in this day and time. I have read that chapter many times asking God to guide me and I have always still felt as tho it was speaking of America. Also the lack of America being mentioned at the end times makes me lean more toward Babylon being America. Let us pray for America (and each other) that our country would resimble more of that New city to come and not resimble Babylon the Great.

Brittman

Brittman, I will agree with you concerning our country and how God views it as a nation..particularly as it concerns the government and business and those 'religions' which calls themselves christian and are not.

Prayer is always in order..and sometimes sackcloth and ashes..:)


The city Babylon as spoken of in Revelation?
It is a city, not a nation..jim

Rabbi RifleRanger..

What do you as g*d's minister offer the people who come to you at Succoth, or at Yom Kippor or Rosh Hashanah or for the Passover seder?
Traditions and feasts a new moon observances?
religion with no heart and spirit?


Where is the sacrifice for the sins of the people these days?

There is no sacrifice by the High Priest these days is there.

What happened to the Jew's High Priest and the Temple sacrifices, the table with shewbread and the altar and the candlesticks?The Ark of the Covenant?

Traditions for religious children?

The prophet spoke these words before John the Baptist and Jesus Christ were manifest to Israel...

Malachai 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.


Mal 3:2
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:


Mal 3:3
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.


Mal 3:4
Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.


Our Messiach Yahshua said these to one of the most learned Jews of his day, and the offer still stands to all who will hear the calling of the Savior..:


John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.


Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Hey Jim,
Thanks for responding, I know that it is thought to be False religion that is Babylon but I dont really see other clear cut scriptures to back that up. If you have something that would help me better understand that chapter I sure would appreciate it.

Thanks for your time,
Brittman

Ranger,
I, like most in here enjoy discussing politics and religion more than anything else. I suppose I'd like talking about moeny too if I ever get some <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Don't worry you won't cause me any discomfort and I sure hope I don't cause you any either. Know that will never be my intent. I can be rather direct sometimes so it may not always appear that way. Actually I often erase half a post knowing taken without the face to face tempering , I may come off blunt to say the least. I had to run early on this afternoon to watch my son's last football game and now I'm home and bushed. I'll post tomorrow afternoon since I have a busy morning a head of me. Have a great night.
Rick

Reverend Jim, all you have posted from the NT is my case in point. No salvation for those who do not embrace Jesus, who by the way, celebrated all those holidays you mention and more. He certainly wasn't celebrating Christmas or Easter. My holidays are filled with plenty of spirit, and you and the likeminded will never be able to take that away from us. That is your belief and that is fine. You take Jesus, I'll take G-d.

Ricky, perhaps we should keep our religious sharing to emails rather than this forum.. My email address is Budsewnvac@aol.com . I look forward to sharing.

Ranger

Rifleranger, Neither I nor any true follower of Christ has any intention of 'taking anything' away from you or any other who has another religion.

We simply are sent forth to speak the Gospel of Christ good news about the most marvelous gift from God..the same one in your case whom you desire to serve and be accepted of.

What happens after that message is given is all the work of God by His Holy Spirit.

BTW, Malachai was an OT prophet..as was Isaiah and Jeremiah..so the witnesses for Christ are not just found in the New Testament writings.

Jesus, and for that matter the original Apostles were all Jewish. Salvation has it's roots in the Jews covenant with God.

Christ himself was the LITERAL fulfillment of centuries of the faithful Jews' observances of the High Holy Days.
All of those feasts and holy days were designed to prepare a people for the reality which was to come..and came..in the Messiah.
Unleavened bread, Passover, Firstfruits, Pentecost were LITERALLY fulfilled by Jesus Christ himself.
The reality of all the types and shadows of the old covenant..

He is the bread of life..the Passover Lamb..the Firstfruits of the new covenant... and He poured out the Holy Spirit on the new covenant followers at Pentecost without measure.

The feast of trumpets, the Atonement, and Tabernacles will one day also be fulfilled literally by Christ..jim

If you say so, Jim.
I will agree to disagree if you will allow me the same courtesy.
I look forward to the coming of the Messiah.
Though we may differ on who that Messiah will be, I am sure we both await eagerly the coming.
I will take my lumps if I am "blind, unsaved" or what have you and I am prepared to do so.
If the Messiah does turn out to be Jesus, then so be it. At that time only will I turn into a believer and take whatever punishment awaits.
Until then, we are all in it together.
Ranger

Jim In Oregon

I ain't bickering with you but I believe God still has a "deal" going with National Israel. That seems to bear out in Romans 9-11.

Christless Judaism is not the way of salvation and the rebuilt temple certainly won't offer up legit sacrifices, but it seems that according to Matt 24 etc that the temple must be in place for the "unveiling" of the Anti-christ... who will take his place in the temple of God proclaiming himself to be God.

I don't think that was fuflilled by the evolution of the usurpous office of the pope as many reformers suggested. The language of 2nd thess 2 is very clear , (to me) that he is speaking of the literal brick and mortar temple, not the church.

Dixie Freedom, Israel is still very much a part of God's plan and heart.On 9/30 earlier in this thread I referenced Romans 11:25 thru 32 which speaks of their position as it concerns the Gospel and their election..

I think the scriptures do allude to the rebuilding of the temple at Jerusalem and a re-establishment of some sort of worship there.
Whether it begins as a sincere effort by Talmudic Jews or not, it ends with satan using it as a bad deception.

In my searching of the scriptures I can find no reference to the temple being rebuilt and the old covenant ordinances being re-established AT THE DIRECTION OF YAHWEH of Judah.....
UNTIL the New Jeruslaer descends from on high and Christ Himself reigns there as Lord of Lords... jim

RifleRanger,
Wwell, it isn't 'i' who says these things to you..:) and I am not a 'reverend' as you called me earlier.I am just a man who loves the Lord and has received Christ in me by faith..

The Messiah you await is spoken of in Isaiah 53,, and again in Isaiah 9:6( see below)

Note there are two very contrasting pictures given us by the Prophet..
The Messiah of Isaiah 53 whom the Lord would lay the iniquities of all upon has come..Jesus is the Christ prophesied of ...tho he was rejected by His people as God foreknew and planned.

We await his return when he will manifest himself to Israel(and the world) as the King of Kings, Prince of Peace..
Selah...jim

Isaiah 53:1
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?


Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.


Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.


Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.


Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.


Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.


Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.


Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Isaiah9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Isa 9:8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.

I have always thought that since the Bible seems to be silent where America is concerned-relative to the end times-is because it will not exist as we know it. JMHO, but I think one of these days we will be involved in a huge nuclear exchange that will pretty well destroy the Americas(north & south). You know it says that 1/3 of the land will be destroyed, and this is about 1/3 of earth's land mass. If we are Babylon, this would seem to be consistent with that prophecy.