Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .458 Win in Africa??

For those of you that use this cartridge (or another one of the .458 dia. rounds) what bullet do you use when hunting DG? How does the Barnes TSX perform in this round?

Wellll that one can stir the sences of the masses!

I have used the .458 Win with rather warm handloads and it works well enough..I have used Woodleighs softs and solids as I used it early on with only handloads as factory stuff sucked bit time at 1800 FPS at one point.. Hot loaded it worked well and killed well, and gave some folks problems, but I personally never had a problem with it..I have not used it on elephant and I won't. I have observed it used with 400 and 450 gr. bullets and been told by the users this is the way to go, but I have to tell you I was not all that impressed with the lighter bullets on Hippo, buffalo and elephant. I would still opt for a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS over the lighter faster bullets. If I were obliged to use a .458 once again then it would be with a 500 gr. flat nose solid at 2000 FPS and I wouldn't be concerned.

IMO, and only speaking for myself, if I am going to go to a 45 caliber then it will be the .458 Lott and loaded "down" to an honest 2250 FPS with very low pressure. The conversion is inexpensive and is the most intelligent route to take with a .458 Win., a cartridge that was poorly designed in the first place, it just does not hold enough powder to suit me and to get the velocity I want unless I load it at 100 to 105 % load density, and I don't really like doing that because in many reported cases compaction became the culprit..

The cartridge has lived under a shadow since its birth that came about when the short magnum craze began with the .338, 264, 300 Win Mag, and the .468 and that was the only reason they didn't do it in a 3 inch version, an even better option than the Lott btw, and quite popular these days in Africa it seems. Where there is smoke there is fire makes since to me adn that certainly applies to the .458 Win.

The belief that modern powders have changed all this is not apparant to me or anyone with a rational approach to the subject..The latest is the 458 Enhanced stuff is sticking the bolts again according to an article I read in one of the gun mags. Not surprising because you cannot get 10 pounds of s--t in a 5 pound bag and therein lies the problem with the .458 Win.

I know this usually stirs some folks up pretty badly and so be it, nothing I can do to change my opine, but I will respect their opinnion, and if they are satisfied, then that's a good thing for them, its just not my cup of tea. All I can suggest to them is to not be blindsided by the fact that they own one and don't want to approach the issue with and open mind and that seems to be apparant in many cases, but again thats their choice.

My last PH, who has spent more years in the field in Africa by far than any non-PH on this or any other forum, loads 74 grains of AA2230 behind a 500 grain A Frame and also a 500 Hornady (older) solid and has hunted everything in Africa for many years with this caliber and doesn't see the need for anything else.

So I therefore will do the same thing, and press on, paying little attention to those with considerably less experience.

I load 72.5grs of AA 2230 under 500gr Woodleigh solids. This load produced 2145fps in my rifle and performance on elephant and buff is more than sufficient, penetration more than sufficient.

My Woodleigh 500gr soft point load requires a bit more powder for the same POI.

I also load 450gr North Fork flat nose solids at 2220fps, using AA 2230. Can't recall the load off hand. Penetration is phenominal - too much for buff really.

I believe that steel jacket solids are best for penetrating bone. Since the first shot on elephants is going to be a brain shot, or at least an attempt, I load the Woodleighs for that shot and the North Forks for subsequent shots since the second and subsequent shots are going to either be insurance shots, in the case of a successful brain shot, or shots intended for the heart/lungs, and possible at crappy angles, where penetration is at a premium.

For lead core softs and solids, I think 500grs is the way to go, but for copper or brass monos, 450grs is the way to go to keep length down and to keep powder capacity up. The 458wm does not enjoy an abundance of case capacity, but enough, if you use your peanut.

AA 2230 is tops for 500's, it is great for 450's too, but H 4895 is also great for 450's.

JPK

Barnes 450gr flatnose banded solids work well in both the Lott and the Winny 458 rounds, but with the Lott you can use the 500's and get still good velocity and all the penetration you could ever need. Great article on this in this months RIFLE magazine.

Very popular cartridge among PH's in Zim, but Lott is favored.

I had both Lotts and 458 win. mags and both will do a good job with what is available today in terms of bullets and powders.

I recently bought a M70 Safari Express in 458 win. mag. thought about converting it to a Lott but after doing a bit of research I decided against the coversion. The avaiability of powders and bullets, today, in my opinion make the conversion from 458 win. mag. to Lott less appealing. Take a look at most reloading manuals or information from the powder manufacturers and you will see that the Lott is 50-80 fps better than the win. mag.

Anyway, I sold off the NIB M70 and found a beautiful 98+ conidition Browning Safari 458 win. mag. made in 1965 on an FN long extractor action...now we have a rifle and there is no way I am going to convert this puppy to a Lott.

JPK, I am going to try AA2230 and H335 and possibly a couple others and settle on a load with North Forks, Barnes and Hornadys....should be good to go for just about anything!

thanks men. for several years i have read in the gun rags that the 458 win was "outdated" and of minimal use. it is good to learn (from people who know) that the 458 win is still not only viable, but preferred by some. thanks again.

The gun rags that claim the .458 Winchester is obsolete are all hooey. With respects to atkinson, his opinion expressed above is incorrect, in my experience. I don't know anything about "articles" claiming that modern powders cause bolt extraction problems in the .458. I go by my own expreiences.

What I do know is that the load which JPK posted above, with AA2230, will drive a 500 grain solid at 2200 fps in my 22" barreled Model 70. There are no pressure problems with this load. I prefer to use the same powder and load with 450 grain bullets because (a) Barnes 450 grain TSXs and North Fork flat-point solids shoot to the same point of aim and (b) recoil is noticeably less. The flat point 450 solid, due to its shape, will penetrate at least as deeply as a rond nosed 500 grain solid. If you search you can find articles on this.

I recently completed a series of tests using various powders. In my opinion, AA2230 is better than H335 because it takes 2 grains less powder to reach a velocity of 2200. AA2230 is better than H4895 for the same reason, except it takes 3 grains less powder. With the .458 you usually run out of case capacity before running into pressure problems. Incidentally, AA2230 is less bulky than H4895.

I also found that H4198 is ideal for 350 grain TSXs, better than several other powders. I can reach 2750 fps without any pressure problems noticed. The cases practically fall out of the rifle. I can back this off 3 grains, incidentally, and still reach 2650. I intend to use this load for lion if I get the chance. Striking energy is a shade under 5500 foot pounds, sort of a .375 H&H on steroids.

So here's what I think are good loads.

Barnes 450 grain TSXs with AA2230 at 2250 fps

North Fork 450 grain flat paint solids with AA2230 at 2250

Barnes 350 grain TSXs with H4198 at 2650

Oh. As far as worrying about compaction or similar problems in the "hot African sun," I think it is equally productive worrying about the tooth fairy, unless you're shooting old Winchester factory loads.

Another interesting fact: .458s have a lot of freebore, for some reason. The CZ550 in this caliber has a longer magazine than other .458s. This means you have in effect the same case capacity as the .458 Lott. Just load TSXs or any multi-grooved monolithic solid with the crimp in a groove further toward the rear of the bullet.

I can see no reason to rechamber a Winchester to a Lott or vice versa.

Indy,
Have you achieved 2200fps (or close) using H4895 with a 500gr? I'm getting interested in buying/building another 458WinMag but have never seen anything published where H4895 (we call it AR2206H) has achieved those speeds.

In the past I was getting 2070fps from a 22" barrel with 480gr Woodleigh using H4895's predecessor ... AR2206.
Cheers...
Con

The first thing I notice is that some have figured out the 458 Win. must be shot with 450 gr. bullets to work! hmmm, is that not in itself a confession? but its a smart move in the right direction regretably..

I would also like for some of you who get these declared velocities with the .458 to step up to the plate and tell me what the load density is on your loads, did you chronograph them are accept some written figure. Do you know the pressure or are you accepting that also on someone elses say so..I have chronographed a lot of 458 Win. loads, and that is why I don't shoot it anymore. If you do not know the load density then I suggest that you research that. LD is where the .458 got the bad reputation, not because it failed in killing power..It kills fine..It clumps powder and compaction has historically caused all these problems and is doing it again with the enhanced loads according to some African magazines. A lot of well documented evidence started all this flame on the .458.

Now if you want to hunt with a .458 that's fine and I know it will kill a big animal, but don't try and confuse me with me with unsubstanciated facts..it won't work...I'll just stick with the Lott and if I want a slower bullet I will load it down..you can load yours .458 UP to hot pressure...

What is even more confusing to me is why anyone would not spend $100.00 bucks to punch one out to a lott..Surly anyone that can afford to hunt Africa can afford such a conversion..

I am only discussing the cartridge, not interested in a fight, and willing to listen to anyones opine, and just stateing my case, which I firmly believe to be fact. I won't give but I will listen.

Would I hunt with a .458, yes I would and with confidence, but it would be with a 500 gr. bullet in a 26 inch barrel at 2000 FPS. I would be confident to use it as what it is and believe it capable of doing the job at such..I also know that thier are better options and the .458 Lott is one of them.

My choice is the 416 or 404 with a 400 gr. bullet at 2450 FPS and a 40 caliber give you the SD you need. A 400 gr. 458 is a poor penetrator as it has little SD..

A 450 grain flat point solid will out penetrate a 500 grain round nose solid, making SD a moot point.

There are more variables than just SD, not that simple

Con,

I have done very little shooting with 500 grain bullets and H4895, since I found AA2230 a better choice. Comparing the two, it takes more grains of powder to get any desired velocity with H4895 and H4895 is less dense. AA2230 works well with 500 grain bullets however, and I have chronographed Barnes banded solids at just over 2200 with AA2230.

Ray,

All the .458 velocities I have posted on the Internet were obtained using a Shooting Chrony "B" chronograph.

I don't know the load density. Most of the loads I use are "slightly" compressed. Curiously, if you check the Barnes reloading manual, you will find that most of the Lott loads, which only best the Winchester by about 50 fps, are also compressed!!!

I have never measured pressure. However, I have been handloading various calibers since 1961 and think I can recognize excess. I don't get "excess" with my loads. I stop adding more powder not because of pressures, but because I don't need any more velocity.

"The first thing I notice is that some have figured out the 458 Win. must be shot with 450 gr. bullets to work!"

Whoever said this, it certainly wasn't me. 500 grain bullets work just fine. I use 450 grain solids because (a) they kick noticeably less and (b) flat point ones penetrate deeper than Woodleigh-shaped 500 grain bullets. In short, they're better for killing elephant and buffalo. For what it's worth, with the same load of powder, I got 50 fps more velocity with 450s, so I left it at that. Less recoil equates to being able to shoot more accurately in the field.

Clumping: Within reason, I've never found that load densities higher than 1.00 caused clumping or compacting, so I chalk this up to either an old wives' tale or a bad quality control problem with Winchester 748 (a powder I've never used) 50 years ago. I used to load all my long range ammo for Camp Perry with compressed charges and never had a velocity variation sufficient to make noticeable elevation changes at 1000 yards. Now if someone carries them around in sweat-soaked leather cartridge belts and gets them all crudded up with verdigris, that might be another situation. When I hunt Africa, the weather is no warmer and a good bit dryer than Camp Perry, Ohio, during the National Matches and I usually load my ammo a month or two before the trip.

Incidentally I've had 30-06 ammo go bad with velocity variations and hang fires (46 grains of IMR4895 powder with about 50% load density) after 20 years or so, and also had some from the 1960s work perfectly fine. Why? Who knows.

Now why wouldn't I just spend the $100.00 and convert to a Lott? Simple. It confers no discernable advantage I can see. The velocity increase is within the barrel to barrel variation of a .458 and wouldn't make any difference to the buffalo anyway. Further, it might mess up the feeding. Finally, though I have never short-stroked a bolt rifle, the Winchester has an obvious advantage in this regard.

I don't know why you talk about 2000 fps with a 26" barrel and 500 grain bullets. You certainly don't need a 26" barrel to get that velocity. Also, a lot of people think that 2000 fps is not adequate for dangerous game, I have read. I've never tried it.

Just an observation:
The 458WinMag has had its controversies and they are on the public record. Initially it was a 2150fps cartridge and that was backed off to 2040fps ... why? But is 2040fps at the muzzle adequate ... I'm sure it is in 99.9% of circumstances.

The use of AA2230 is fine as long as your in a country where its available! So that kind of seems to make the 458WinMag a one powder cartridge.

Is the 458Lott loaded by the factories to its potential? I doubt it because there are old guns about ... just like the 35Whelen is loaded close to 50-100fps below its potential.

End of the day though, it (458WinMag) is a good cartridge and if you can get 2100fps from a 500gr or 480gr there's a tonne of good work you can do with it! The Lott's 2300fps may be deemed necessary by some, but it comes in a heavier package to control the recoil! A 9lb 458WinMag with a 480gr at 2070fps is just a dream to carry and use however. Mind you ... a 9lb 416Taylor with a 400gr at 2300fps is perhaps a better all-rounder again.
Cheers...
Con

With my limited experience with large bores and loading for them, I can only pass along my limited experiences with this cartridge, however, In my CZ .458 WM I have used H4895 behind the Barnes TSX 450 grn. bullet. Two loads which are resulting in outstanding accuracy for me are 72 grn. of said powder giving me 2225 over a Pro Chono chronograph, and 73 grns. of the same powder/bullet moving it at 2280 fps. Recoil is manageable with MOA accuracy. With the long magazine, and long throat in this rifle I am able to seat the bullet out to typical Lott OAL, and am experiencing slight, maybe 101-102% case capacity. I have fired these loads at temps well over 100 degrees, and as low as 10 degrees with no noticable change in performance or POI shift.

I too had considered reaming it out to the Lott, but after experiencing this level of performance, I see no need for it. With proper modern bullets, and appropriate powders, I believe
the original concerns over the .458 performance issues are no longer issues at all. If a monometal bullet traveling at 2280 fps. will not do the job at hand, chances are I don't need to be pursuing it.

If someone could explain to me what advantage a Lott moving this bullet at 75-100 fps. faster would achieve that my loads are not, I would be interested to listen to your reasoning.

With best regards, George

As a P.S. to the last sentence in you last post here on page one Ray, in regard to a 400 grn. bullet in the.458, check with your partner Phil/458Win. who has previously stated that after some exptensive testing through his ..458 "Old Ugly, he found that the now discontinued 400 grn. Barnes demonstrated the "best penetration" of any .458 projectile he had ever tested.

So the 458 win wont work with a 500 @ 2200?

FWIW, my 24" Mark X with 500 grain Barnes solids and 72 grains of AA2230 gives me averages in the 2200's @ 101% density.

The Lott, when I owned it, would best it by 75 fps with 82 grains @ 105% density.

Finn Aagaard also published his report on the 400 Barnes and he too found that it penetrated as well as any 500 soft nosed bullets. Like me he also had no trouble getting an honest 2000fps+ with 500 gr bullets and near 2400fps with 400 gr bullets.
As he so elequantly put it " a 500 gr .458 bullet at an honest 2000fps puts a bloody big hole in anything it hits"

Yes the compressed load used by the factories of 50 years ago eventually proved to give erratic performance as they aged. So do Kynoch loads with the famed Nitro rounds. Folks who insist on hanging onto this outdated dogma to make their new rounds look better need to realize we are now in the 21st century.

I ask from complete ignorance. Would you notice the difference between 50 gr of bullet weight (450 vs. 500) so long as both are well constucted to do the job?

Not likely - but here on this forum you'll find folks who love to argue esoteric ballistic masturbation questions like that.