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I can't say anything bad about a good Brit.

Boise,

Since you have good results with a GWP, and it sounds like you want something just a little smaller and closer and tighter, I would think that the wire-haired Griffon female would be ideal.

Though I have a wonderful Britt, I will be looking at a Griffon next time also. The way I see it, if you often hunt with 3 or more people in grass CRP fields, the GSP or Britt is pretty ideal. But if you prefer to mosey around, like to hunt with one or two people near thicker cover, and don't care to 'search' for your dog while hunting, then a Griffon is probably a great choice.

The guys that are letting their dogs range 100 yards and more must be hunting something different that I am. Roosters in the wild often will flush in my experience if you slam the car door after the first week or two of the season. I also dont feel that a far ranging dog will find more birds as my dogs thoroughly work every piece of cover available. Maybe they are hunting massive CRP fields out west? I do know that my dog(s) do a very good job of following a bird at a snail's pace, lock up at times, wait for me, relocate and all that jazz. But I have also seen many, many times when the dog is working at 30 yards and the birds bust at 75. Especially when there are a lot of birds. Nothing worse than watching 40 birds bust out of the habitat you are gonna hunt cuz of a far ranging dog.

I agree, if the dog is busting out lots of birds and not getting any for you, then the dog is not being helpful and should be reined in somehow. what breed of dog are you running? Did they take a lot of training to get them to hunt 'for' you?

The pheasants here are so jumpy right now, it is hardly worth hunting where they been pushed around. One thing that does work is to coordinate with a couple of people just like a deer drive. The blocker needs to stay out of sight and silent on the approach (say the end of a long tree row, or a big slough that narrows down at one end), then the other guy just start poking along at the other end and birds will be running likity-split toward the blocker.

In general, more roosters run out than fly out at this time of year. And if simply bagging birds is your goal, blaze orange is not your friend.

Beats somebody getting shot if you're using a blocker or the party can't walk in a straight line. That's how most accidents happen in SD.

I run a Brit. I have often found the best way to hunt birds this time of year is to go out just you and the dog. keep the dog in really close, say 15-20 yards and just follow the dog if the cover permits. No, and I mean absolutely NO, noise. No bells, no whistles, no spoken word...nothing.

There is no way anyone is going to convince me when you get into this time of year on wild birds that have gotten pressure that a dog ranging out past shotgun range is a good thing. There is no dog that is going to relocate on a wild, late-season rooster with it holding tight.

Also, there is one thing I dont understand about the "steady to wing and shot" theory. and that is simply, why? why would you want to handicap your dog by delaying the retrieve? Reality is that wild roosters dont always die in the air (and especially so if you are shooting steel, but that is topic for anudder day), and if you delay that dog in getting to the place the roody fell, you are making the retrieve much harder than it needs to be. I cant think of a benefit, but maybe there is one. Aside from putting some "master" or "champion" behind its name, what is the benefit to this concept?

I caught a lot of flack about my Brit not being steady to wing and shot..

I never understood the concept either, as you said, they don't always die in the air, and I for one preffered the dog to be under them when they came down...

And no, my Brit didn't have any titles after her name...but I only failed to recover one bird in 12 years with her, and that one still puzzles me...

I have always taken a " results oriented, real world" approach to dog training...I am sure I would suck in competition...

Ingwe

Simple. So you don't shoot your dog. Pheasant hunting is one thing, but having a dog jump after the first shot on a covery rise is dangerous. There has been many, many dogs killed because the dogs jump after the shot, and birds are still comming up. A buddy of mine has dogs he runs in NSTRA, Ive had to hold my shots too many times to count because a low flying bird has a dog on its tail. With a dog thats steady to wing and shot, you don't have to worry about that. If you teach your dog to hunt "dead". Then a wounded bird is not a problem, because the dog knows they can trail and catch the running bird.

Beretta. Why not just get a flushing dog if you only want them 15-20 yards infront of you? IMO a pointing dog that ranges 15-20 yards is useless. Sounds like youd do much better with a flushing dog. Most guys I know are breeding Brittany's to run big, not small. A friend of mine quit breeding to Nolan's Last Bullet because the pups just didn't run big enough. Last weekend he had his pup from "Buddy" and I had my pup out of an All Age Champion. We were running dogs (not really hunting, but we put 10 birds out in the field and let the dogs hunt those birds), my pup found all 10, and she is only 1 1/2 years old. She found all the birds simply because she was covering way more terrain. Trust me, Im not bashing pups from "Buddy", its just that a bigger running dog will find more birds then a smaller running dog every single time. (as long as the big running dog has half a nose).

Some guys are pure meat hunters. They don't really care how the dog performs as long as it finds birds and you can go home with a limit every time. And that is perfectly OK. Some guys hunt because of the birds and the dog work (this is how I am). I don't care if I kill a limit every day over my dog, I dont even shoot a bird my dog doesn't point. I get more enjoyment out of killing 1 or 2 birds and watching my dog run, and handle flawlessly, then I do killing a limit of birds over a dog that runs around with no real clue what they are doing. And trust me, after youve seen enough "good" dogs work, you can tell the ones that are running around and those that are really hunting. Theres a reason Field Trail guys go through a ton of dogs to find a champion. I know plenty of guys who have bought started dogs, that weren't going to make field trial dogs, and were very happy with them. A buddy of mine has gone through several Brits trying to find one that was good enought to run trials. Every single one he sold that couldn't cut it went to great hunting homes with guys that love to hunt over those dogs. And they will kill a ton of birds over those dogs.

My steady to wing and shot experience has always been with someone else's dog although I've had a few points where my dog remained on point mostly because she could see another bird. I don't recall ever seeing one of my pointers leap towards a falling bird but my springer tried to catch them before they landed - much, much faster to retrieve.

Steady to wing and shot was extremely productive in the old Idaho chukar days where we would bump up coveys of several dozen birds and see hundreds of birds each day. The dog holding steady allowed the other hunters to move in and shoot late rising birds. In the old days we wore backpacks to carry the birds, not uncommon to be carrying over ten birds at time. I would have my dog steady to wing and shot if I could and always try but my training skills are not to the same level as others.

Great to learn what others value and the various hunting techniques and thinkings.

A steady dog is a delight to hunt things like quail over. Like the majority here, I want my dog to catch the rooster in his mouth as it flaps down...... Especially when there are a lot of birds, locating a runner is often very difficult.

HOWEVER. Aside from the shooting the dog issue (which is real enough), there are a number of covey birds that alight in multiple flushes. Sharptails and Chukars will flush in threes and fours, rather than the whole covey light up. If the dog turns on the afterburners after the first birds that go up, your party will miss any opportunity at the rest of the little red legged devils.... I can't recall all the times I have actually reloaded and scratched down a bird or two on a second or third flush. FWIW, Dutch.

Hey Dutch, I hear exactly what you're saying having been there, done that sort of experience. I have since moved to carrying an over under and only shooting one bird per rise. I don't know how to describe the experience of allowing the birds to pass after all the years of hammering all I could. Also, learned it was more challenging to only shoot male quail - that cuts down on one's bag pretty quickly.

Best day ever was 28 birds between two of us with a mixed bag of chukar, huns, rooster, and both valley and mountain quail. The mountains give you an idea as too how long ago.

i've hunted over a ton of brits... never saw one that was worth his feed til a buddy who was tired of seeing his dog disappear over ridges that were 3/4 mile away got smart, did his homework and came up with a french brit...
the only way he could ever hope to control his American field trial bred brits was with steady heavy use of a shock collar...
his last 2 dogs (french bred brits) have never had a shock collar on, and he's never regretted that...

i'm putting my money on a griffon....

Neither you, or your buddy has ever hunted over a trained Brit then. There is a reason the winningest dog in NSTRA history is a brit. Just because a dog is "field trial" breed doesn't mean they shouldn't obey commands. The sire of my pup won the American Brittany Club Pheasant classic this year and was the All Age Amateur National runner up 2 or 3 years ago. My pup is a joy to hunt over. She will make her first big run out of the gate and run like hell when you release her. But as soon as she figures out your not following she checks in and hunts within about 200 yards, checking in regularly. Shes only 1 1/2 years old and will smoke 99% of the dogs she runs against. Getting a dog to handle has everything to do with training, and much less to do with the dog. You can teach a big ranging dog to hunt close, you can't teach a boot licker to run big. If your buddy was constantly on the e-collar, chances are he was ruining the dog. Dogs just don't need to be hammered all the time on the collar. Go watch an AKC field trial some day. Watch how well those dogs handle WITHOUT a collar on them (they aren't allowed in trials). The reason those dogs handle well without a collar and your buddy needed one is simple...... Training.

OK thanks... glad we got that settled.....

I'm sure no champion dog trainer, but I'd have to agree about the Brits needing training. My Britt chooses to stay within 100 yards or less, and didn't really take much training on my part.

If somebody has to stay ticking the collar all the time in order to hunt the dog, then something is wrong.

Jetjockey,

Hmmm. I certainly can appreciate hunting different species, my experience has been limited to roosters, huns, sharpies, and ruffies. very little quail experience. Having said that, I have a TON of rooster experience in most of the states in the upper midwest. I am NOT a pure meat hunter by any stretch of the term. I enjoy all parts of the hunt and especially the dog work. Especially late season MN birds at 0 degrees, in the snow, cold, and willow/cattail swamps. That is when a far ranging dog is completely and utterly worthless. The biggest reason being that you would never find it!

So, why a pointer? I like to watch pointers work, love the point and IMO they might have slightly better noses on average (plenny of exceptions, I know). Plus, Brits make a good house dog. And I have seen plenty of "good" dogs work...I kinda dont like the implication that I havent. I have seen some "bad" dog work too and the worst ones are the ones that range too far and blow up the birds out of range. I will acknowledge that you may hunt a different species in different terrain thus they work for you. However, believe me when I say, a far ranging dog where I hunt is better left kenneled and isnt worth the price of their dogfood.

As far as the not shooting your dog part about steady to wing and shot....I and my hunting partners dont take shots at ANY low flying bird. I simply dont need a bird that bad and if you are relying on the fact that your dog is trained to stay steady so you dont shoot them....yikes. How about accidently shooting a person who is for whatever reason in the wrong place? How do you handle that?

I am curious about all the field trials and qualifying stuff. Are these all pen-raised birds? That would explain quite a bit methinks.

Good conversation.

"I am curious about all the field trials and qualifying stuff. Are these all pen-raised birds? That would explain quite a bit methinks."


We hunted a gamefarm last year and I would swear the dog had learned to point the orange flagging tape that the handler had used to mark the birds. Mighty smart dog and worked excellent, but I found points with the wind to his back fairly hard to believe. The dog was not steady to wing and shot and we gave him about 70 chances to hold steady.

I have hunted a few gamefarms and/or pen-raised birds as well and the best way I can describe it is pre-season football. It is marketed as the same, but it isnt. Great for a very young dog, after that it doesnt do much for me. The birds are not nearly the same as wild birds.

To illustrate my earlier point, here is a pic from a deer stand of the stuff I hunt pheasants in. I hunt them right in the willows and you can see how a far ranging dog would be worthless.

Beretta. Some of the trials have liberated birds, some don't..... Even in the above picture, I would still use a big running dog, but thats just me. The Garmin can do wonders for finding small dogs in deep cover.

I understand what you are saying when it comes to late season birds. In that case, a close ranging dog might be better. But in almost every other circumstance, a big running dog will find more birds. Like I said earlier, I grew up hunting pheasants in eastern WA. We never had a problem getting dogs to hold wild birds in the late season. I don't know if our birds were pressured as much as yours, but our dogs had no problem with them. And I grew up with "meat" dogs.....

My pup spent all summer in S. Dakota chasing wild pheasanst and Sharpies. IMO the sharpies were much harder for the dogs to pin then the pheasants. They would bust a few, but youd be amazed how far back the dogs would learn to point. These were all wild birds. From what I saw, pheasants became kids stuff for the dogs. However, I will say that I wasn't watching the everyday dogs work. One of the Brits I saw run was the Purina dog of the Year this year. He scored more trial points then any Brittany in history. All by an amateur trainer/handler. I also got to see this years ABC Amateur National champion, and second runner up. The Amateur champ was also the runner up in the Open All Age Championship. So these weren't your everyday dogs. However, what really amazed me was how well the young dogs could handle their birds. I watched a 1 1/2 year old dog follow a rooster for over 30 yards before he pinned him down without flushing him. IMO that was pretty amazing from a young pup.

If a dog is running big and busting birds then I still say they aren't trained well. I watched a dog point a sharpie in S. Dakota at almost 700 yards away. He held his point, and the bird until we got their. It wasn't really a hunting situation sice we were on horses, but you get the point. A dog that hunts plantation/preserve birds only is going to bust a TON of birds, simply because they aren't used to them. Heck, even the seasoned dogs go "bowling for birds" when they first get back to the plains. But, a good,big running dog will learn quick and find a lot more birds then a small running dog. Even if they do bust a few. Heres a couple pictures of the terrrain the dogs were hunting in S. Dakota. There was a mixture of pheasanst, sharpies, and chickens in the plains. But not a ton of them. The dogs had to cover a lot of ground to find birds. There wasn't a lot of deep cover, so they birds could run if the dogs didn't pin them. At one point, I watched the front dog in the bottom picture point a sharpie that was over 50 yards away in a small draw . The wind was in her nose and blowing right at her. We walked way up around the draw and walked towards the dog. Sure enough as we got half way down 4 sharpies busted all around us. Pretty amazing....... Notice how high the dogs heads are on point. Those birds are a long way infront of them.

You might want to look into getting a French Brittany. They are the smallest pointing breed, and have been bred for the foot hunter that wants a close hunting pointer. The females will run 25-33 pounds. The males 27-35 pounds. The low end is at the end of hunting season. I have 9 of the little devils. They are super affectionate, love kids, travel well, and are insane for birds. They are good house pets.

Mine hunt close. Into the wind they will quarter 25-30 yards to the side and 20-40 yards in front. With the wind they will run out 50-70 yards and hunt back. They hunt further out than my Goldens but where the Goldens will at times soft point, the Fr. Brits are rock solid on points. They are quiet hunters, and I always hunt them with e-collars. I use the vibration/tone features to call them back if they get too far off course, and have the stimulation if needed. No sense blowing a whistle or yelling after being careful to push doors shut on the vehicle instead of slamming them. They aren't the strongest retrievers, but I've lost only one bird the last 5 years, and that one ran down a chuck/badger hole right by where it went down. They do hunt dead, relentlessly pursue wounded birds, and secure the dead and wounded until I walk the few steps myself. I'll settle for that as they work hard, bump few birds, and don't make me chase after them because they can't be controlled in the field.

They got started on released birds in OH at between 16 and 20 weeks, and SD birds the following year. By the end of the first week in SD they had figured out the differences between released and wild birds, and all the other distractions like jack rabbits SD has to offer. I'm planning to head out to SD next week with 5 of them, travel conditions permitting.

Something I didn't realize when I got my first Fr. Brits was that orange and white dogs in tall thick grass are hard to find. Fr. Brits will porpoise throught the tall stuff, but they will also burrow down and root through it to get at the birds. I've come to appreciate black and white coats that are part of the breed standard unlike the Am. Brits. They are a lot easier to keep track of in tall heavy cover.

The most important thing is not the breed, but working with the breeder to get a dog that suites your expectations, temperment, and hunting style.