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Originally Posted by djs
Originally Posted by Tony270WSM
Is this gov run by the Bible or by a set of laws? Easy choice for me.


Easy for me too! Here are some Bible verses that I don't want to be governed by:



Well, quit f'n up and you won't be purged.


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This is a two part answer to a one part question.

First, when this country was founded 12 of the 13 colonies had a state religion of one of the Christian sects. Rhode Island was a secular colony. The purpose of the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution was to guarantee that each state could keep their state religion. In the 1860's we had that little to do called the Civil War and the states lost their state sovereignty. NC constitutional amendment on religion is unconstitutional and I am sure so will say the 7 Gods and 2 Goddesses that make up SCAOTUS.

Second, No one should expect any one of any religion or lack thereof to check said religion or lack thereof at the office door upon assuming a political office. However, if anyone makes religion apart of their running for office or being employed by the government then their religion becomes gist for the mill.

I will not vote for a Conservative Christian any more than I would vote for a Liberal, Communist/Fascist, or Muslim. They are all dangerous to my freedom and liberty.


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Originally Posted by GeoW
How do atheist feel about these? This is not a slam, just something that I have thought about.

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

3 Do not have any other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.

10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work�you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

13 You shall not murder.

14 You shall not commit adultery.

15 You shall not steal.

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 You shall not covet your neighbor�s house; you shall not covet your neighbor�s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.


This particular atheist - reading what you posted - probably feels - much the same way you would feel - if you were to read similar admonitions from, say, the Moslem Koran, the Hindu Rigveda, the Zoroastrian Advesta, the Sikh's Guru Granth Sahib or the Latter Day Saint's Book of Mormon.

"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also. I would not interfere with any one's religion, either to strengthen it or to weaken it. I am not able to believe one's religion can affect his hereafter one way or the other, no matter what that religion may be. But it may easily be a great comfort to him in this life--hence it is a valuable possession to him."
- Mark Twain, a Biography


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Actually, as a Christian, I cannot swear the oath in court either, although I am bound to not give false testimony. The Bible clearly states to not take any oaths, so I will not. (Matthew 5:34-37) I will also not offer false testimony. As a retired investigator, I have already dealt with this issue on many occasions as an officer of the court of the county where I was employed. When I explained my position concerning this to the court, they simply asked if my yea would be yea, and my nay would be nay. This, I affirmed, and we proceeded. I have testified many hundreds of times in this way.

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This atheist thinks those are mostly a bunch of me-first religious hooey, and a few obvious platitudes about killin' and stealin'- which are, by the way, directly contradicted by other parts of the Bible.

Originally Posted by GeoW
How do atheist feel about these? This is not a slam, just something that I have thought about.

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;

3 Do not have any other gods before me.

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.

10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work�you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.

12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

13 You shall not murder.

14 You shall not commit adultery.

15 You shall not steal.

16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 You shall not covet your neighbor�s house; you shall not covet your neighbor�s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.


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Djs

That's old covenant. Doesn't matter anyway you're taking it out of context. So often that's the case, people argue against Christianity, old covenant or new, and misconstrue the meaning to build their tired old argument. Again and again and again. Some on here (not particularly you) have had thatt explained to them many times, they still do it at every opportunity. Learning disabled, I reckon.


Take note here non-Christians.
---------
"When I explained my position concerning this to the court, they simply asked if my yea would be yea, and my nay would be nay. This, I affirmed, and we proceeded. I have testified many hundreds of times in this way."
--------

The court knew the answer. His yes means yes and his no means no. That's strait from the Bible. They knew by his words he was a Bible believer and trusted he was going to answer honestly.

You can't do that with athiests or muslims or any other religion. It simply doesn't apply... and that statement, nor my previous posts on this thread, has anything whatever to do with being judgemental or exclusivistic or any other term you'd like to apply to it. It just simply is. Until you accept the Lord into your heart you'll never understand that. It's not possible. You exclude yourself from the possibility... and from a lot of other understanding, too. Like I've said on here before, wisdom and understanding have but one source. All else is counterfeit (that is to say, a lie, a fake, it's pretend, it's pure fiction, it'll lead to nowhere, it's less than usless).

Also, on the topic of exclusivity and judgementalness, it's strait from the Word so you'll have to take it up with the author. Matters not one iota to Christians. They know the differernce.


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Originally Posted by Archerhunter
Djs



Take note here non-Christians.
---------
"When I explained my position concerning this to the court, they simply asked if my yea would be yea, and my nay would be nay. This, I affirmed, and we proceeded. I have testified many hundreds of times in this way."
--------

The court knew the answer. His yes means yes and his no means no. That's strait from the Bible. They knew by his words he was a Bible believer and trusted he was going to answer honestly.

You can't do that with athiests or muslims or any other religion. It simply doesn't apply... and that statement, nor my previous posts on this thread, has anything whatever to do with being judgemental or exclusivistic or any other term you'd like to apply to it. It just simply is. Until you accept the Lord into your heart you'll never understand that. It's not possible. You exclude yourself from the possibility... and from a lot of other understanding, too. Like I've said on here before, wisdom and understanding have but one source. All else is counterfeit (that is to say, a lie, a fake, it's pretend, it's pure fiction, it'll lead to nowhere, it's less than usless).

Also, on the topic of exclusivity and judgementalness, it's strait from the Word so you'll have to take it up with the author. Matters not one iota to Christians. They know the differernce.


Hummm... By that logic I guess I don't have to worry about perjury if I lie under oath. Good to know. [Linked Image]


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First of all, he should not force his beliefs on them, nor they on him. His desire to reform government is not a religious belief and is a separate issue.

Quote
Bothwell's detractors are threatening to take the city to court for swearing him in, even though the state's antiquated requirement that officeholders believe in God is unenforceable because it violates the U.S. Consititution.


The question is, does the 14th amendment incorporation of the first amendment cover this situation? I'd say it does but it may end up in the supream court.


The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
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"By that logic I guess I don't have to worry about perjury if I lie under oath. Good to know."


A perfect example of what I'm saying. Perfect.
And if there aren't more perfect examples soon to follow, I know of several people who are thinking them... just a matter of wheter they post them or not.


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SCOTUS ruled in Torcaso v. Watkins that States and the Federal Government can not require any kind of religious test for public office.


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Originally Posted by Archerhunter
Djs

That's old covenant. Doesn't matter anyway you're taking it out of context. So often that's the case, people argue against Christianity, old covenant or new, and misconstrue the meaning to build their tired old argument. Again and again and again. Some on here (not particularly you) have had thatt explained to them many times, they still do it at every opportunity. Learning disabled, I reckon.


Take note here non-Christians.
---------
"When I explained my position concerning this to the court, they simply asked if my yea would be yea, and my nay would be nay. This, I affirmed, and we proceeded. I have testified many hundreds of times in this way."
--------

The court knew the answer. His yes means yes and his no means no. That's strait from the Bible. They knew by his words he was a Bible believer and trusted he was going to answer honestly.

You can't do that with athiests or muslims or any other religion. It simply doesn't apply... and that statement, nor my previous posts on this thread, has anything whatever to do with being judgemental or exclusivistic or any other term you'd like to apply to it. It just simply is. Until you accept the Lord into your heart you'll never understand that. It's not possible. You exclude yourself from the possibility... and from a lot of other understanding, too. Like I've said on here before, wisdom and understanding have but one source. All else is counterfeit (that is to say, a lie, a fake, it's pretend, it's pure fiction, it'll lead to nowhere, it's less than usless).

Also, on the topic of exclusivity and judgementalness, it's strait from the Word so you'll have to take it up with the author. Matters not one iota to Christians. They know the differernce.



Wow, your use of logic here is as spot on as your spelling.

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Originally Posted by Archerhunter
Djs

That's old covenant. Doesn't matter anyway you're taking it out of context. So often that's the case, people argue against Christianity, old covenant or new, and misconstrue the meaning to build their tired old argument. Again and again and again. Some on here (not particularly you) have had thatt explained to them many times, they still do it at every opportunity. Learning disabled, I reckon.


Take note here non-Christians.
---------
"When I explained my position concerning this to the court, they simply asked if my yea would be yea, and my nay would be nay. This, I affirmed, and we proceeded. I have testified many hundreds of times in this way."
--------

The court knew the answer. His yes means yes and his no means no. That's strait from the Bible. They knew by his words he was a Bible believer and trusted he was going to answer honestly.

You can't do that with athiests or muslims or any other religion. It simply doesn't apply... and that statement, nor my previous posts on this thread, has anything whatever to do with being judgemental or exclusivistic or any other term you'd like to apply to it. It just simply is. Until you accept the Lord into your heart you'll never understand that. It's not possible. You exclude yourself from the possibility... and from a lot of other understanding, too. Like I've said on here before, wisdom and understanding have but one source. All else is counterfeit (that is to say, a lie, a fake, it's pretend, it's pure fiction, it'll lead to nowhere, it's less than usless).

Also, on the topic of exclusivity and judgementalness, it's strait from the Word so you'll have to take it up with the author. Matters not one iota to Christians. They know the differernce.


The more you talk, the more you turn people off to "religion".

"The court knew the answer. His yes means yes and his no means no. That's strait from the Bible. They knew by his words he was a Bible believer and trusted he was going to answer honestly.

You can't do that with athiests or muslims or any other religion. It simply doesn't apply... and that statement, nor my previous posts on this thread, has anything whatever to do with being judgemental or exclusivistic or any other term you'd like to apply to it. It just simply is. Until you accept the Lord into your heart you'll never understand that. It's not possible. You exclude yourself from the possibility... and from a lot of other understanding, too. "


But how could they "trust him", based solely on his word, when he wouldn't swear it to god? I thought you earlier said that it couldn't be done that way?

That's OK though, because YOU know that YOU are right, and the rest of the world is doomed until they see YOUR way. Any other way is "just not possible". whistle

Go back and read again where I say that this just pushes people away from religion....

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I'd be much more inclined to believe someone who is upfront about their religious beliefs...or lack of...in the face of adversity than I would be to someone of lesser character who MIGHT just use god/jesus for personal gain...some preachers & politicians come to mind.

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Originally Posted by Archerhunter
Along these same lines, here's an interesting thought.

When testifying in a court of law can an athiest be trusted?

"Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?"

Many don't take it seriously when they swear before God but those who believe in Him believe He hears their oath, and remembers. If the athiest is honest and says no, can his testimony be heard? And if he says yes, he's lying. Can anything he says after proving himself willing to lie, be believed?

Interesting questions.
Resulting debates should be entertaining. lol



Stone Cold says, "DTA"...don't trust anybody. Not to preach at you or anybody else, but the Bible actually says to neither swear by Heaven nor the earth, but to let "yes" be yes and "no" be no. I take that to mean anytime anybody lies it is a sin. Most folks take lying under oath more seriously, but obviously, a lie is a lie. Personally, I think Christians are less likely to lie under oath than some other groups, but an individual is an individual and Christians can lie just like anybody else. In fact, a person could look on it as a Christian being more likely to lie than somebody else because they know the path to forgiveness whereas others may figure they are going straight to hell for lying after they swore by God not to. Then again, lack of any belief does seem to leave a large gap. My opinion is that some of our most trusted public servants lie more and more often both on the stand and off, than average joe's.

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Originally Posted by Archerhunter
Take note here non-Christians.
---------
"When I explained my position concerning this to the court, they simply asked if my yea would be yea, and my nay would be nay. This, I affirmed, and we proceeded. I have testified many hundreds of times in this way."
--------

The court knew the answer. His yes means yes and his no means no. That's strait from the Bible. They knew by his words he was a Bible believer and trusted he was going to answer honestly.

You can't do that with athiests or muslims or any other religion. It simply doesn't apply... and that statement, nor my previous posts on this thread, has anything whatever to do with being judgemental or exclusivistic or any other term you'd like to apply to it. It just simply is. Until you accept the Lord into your heart you'll never understand that. It's not possible. You exclude yourself from the possibility... and from a lot of other understanding, too. Like I've said on here before, wisdom and understanding have but one source. All else is counterfeit (that is to say, a lie, a fake, it's pretend, it's pure fiction, it'll lead to nowhere, it's less than usless).

Also, on the topic of exclusivity and judgementalness, it's strait from the Word so you'll have to take it up with the author. Matters not one iota to Christians. They know the differernce.


WOW!!!!

Exclusivistic, self-righteous, and they never lie. Them Christians is something else.

All the rest of us are liars and really evil people.



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Religion should not be of a concern. Unless it's Islam of course. lol

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Wonderful, and potentially REWARDING thread, this.

I mean in strictly philosophical terms

I'll put on the popcorn,......

speak yer' minds, I sez'

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Originally Posted by Steve
Personally I think that barring ANYONE from public on religious beliefs or lack of them is complete BS. Those who try an sue him on this basis should be handed their heads by the judge (not that I know what basis he could do this).

Lawsuit threatened over atheist councilman in NC

Quote


RALEIGH, N.C. � Asheville City Councilman Cecil Bothwell believes in ending the death penalty, conserving water and reforming government � but he doesn't believe in God. His political opponents say that's a sin that makes him unworthy of serving in office, and they've got the North Carolina Constitution on their side.

Bothwell's detractors are threatening to take the city to court for swearing him in, even though the state's antiquated requirement that officeholders believe in God is unenforceable because it violates the U.S. Consititution.

"The question of whether or not God exists is not particularly interesting to me and it's certainly not relevant to public office," the recently elected 59-year-old said.

Bothwell ran this fall on a platform that also included limiting the height of downtown buildings and saving trees in the city's core, views that appealed to voters in the liberal-leaning community at the foot of the Appalachian Mountains. When Bothwell was sworn into office on Monday, he used an alternative oath that doesn't require officials to swear on a Bible or reference "Almighty God."

That has riled conservative activists, who cite a little-noticed quirk in North Carolina's Constitution that disqualifies officeholders "who shall deny the being of Almighty God." The provision was included when the document was drafted in 1868 and wasn't revised when North Carolina amended its constitution in 1971. One foe, H.K. Edgerton, is threatening to file a lawsuit in state court against the city to challenge Bothwell's appointment.

"My father was a Baptist minister. I'm a Christian man. I have problems with people who don't believe in God," said Edgerton, a former local NAACP president and founder of Southern Heritage 411, an organization that promotes the interests of black southerners.

The head of a conservative weekly newspaper says city officials shirked their duty to uphold the state's laws by swearing in Bothwell. David Morgan, editor of the Asheville Tribune, said he's tired of seeing his state Constitution "trashed."

Bothwell can't be forced out of office over his atheist views because the North Carolina provision is unenforceable, according to the supremacy clause of the U.S. Constitution. Six other states, Arkansas, Maryland, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas, have similar provisions barring atheist officeholders.

In 1961, the U.S. Supreme Court reaffirmed that federal law prohibits states from requiring any kind of religious test to serve in office when it ruled in favor of a Maryland atheist seeking appointment as a notary public.

But the federal protections don't necessarily spare atheist public officials from spending years defending themselves in court. Avowed atheist Herb Silverman won an eight-year court battle in 1997 when South Carolina's highest court granted him the right to be appointed as a notary despite the state's law.

Bothwell said a legal challenge to his appointment would be "fun," but believes his opponents' efforts have more to do with politics than religious beliefs.

"It's local political opponents seeking to change the outcome of an election they lost," said Bothwell, who's lived in Asheville nearly three decades and wrote the city's best-selling guide book.

Bothwell was raised a Presbyterian but began questioning Christian beliefs at a young age and considered himself an atheist by the time he was 20. He's an active member of the Unitarian Universalist Church of Asheville and he still celebrates Christmas, often hanging ornaments on his Fishhook cactus.

Bothwell said his spiritual views don't matter to most of his constituents. Bothwell is a registered Democrat but didn't run on a party ticket in the nonpartisan Council election.

Even if he can't force Bothwell out of office, Edgerton said he hopes a legal battle would ultimately force North Carolina's Legislature to determine the legality of the article of the Constitution.

"If the law is wrong, it is the obligation of the Legislature to say it's wrong," he said.

Provisions like North Carolina's tend to stay on the books because lawmakers would rather not spend time weeding out outdated laws, said Duke University Law School Professor Joseph Blocher.

"I mean there are state laws against spitting in the street," he said. "Why spend the time?"

But the battle is important to Silverman, who says there are scores of other atheist politicians afraid to "come out of the closet." He cited U.S. Rep. Pete Stark of California, the first and only congressman to publicly acknowledge he doesn't believe in God.

"We're trying to change our culture to the point where it's not political suicide," Silverman said.




Now THAT is a Frist Amendment violation.







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If guns are to help us fight tyranny, then the atheists in NC need to get armed.


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Originally Posted by Steve
Personally I think that barring ANYONE from public on religious beliefs or lack of them is complete BS. Those who try an sue him on this basis should be handed their heads by the judge (not that I know what basis he could do this).

Lawsuit threatened over atheist councilman in NC

Quote


RALEIGH, N.C. � Asheville City Councilman Cecil Bothwell believes in ending the death penalty, conserving water and reforming government � but he doesn't believe in God. His political opponents say that's a sin that makes him unworthy of serving in office, and they've got the North Carolina Constitution on their side.

Bothwell's detractors are threatening to take the city to court for swearing him in, even though the state's antiquated requirement that officeholders believe in God is unenforceable because it violates the U.S. Consititution.

"The question of whether or not God exists is not particularly interesting to me and it's certainly not relevant to public office," the recently elected 59-year-old said.

Bothwell ran this fall on a platform that also included limiting the height of downtown buildings and saving trees in the city's core, views that appealed to voters in the liberal-leaning community at the foot of the Appalachian Mountains. When Bothwell was sworn into office on Monday, he used an alternative oath that doesn't require officials to swear on a Bible or reference "Almighty God."

That has riled conservative activists, who cite a little-noticed quirk in North Carolina's Constitution that disqualifies officeholders "who shall deny the being of Almighty God." The provision was included when the document was drafted in 1868 and wasn't revised when North Carolina amended its constitution in 1971. One foe, H.K. Edgerton, is threatening to file a lawsuit in state court against the city to challenge Bothwell's appointment.

"My father was a Baptist minister. I'm a Christian man. I have problems with people who don't believe in God," said Edgerton, a former local NAACP president and founder of Southern Heritage 411, an organization that promotes the interests of black southerners.

The head of a conservative weekly newspaper says city officials shirked their duty to uphold the state's laws by swearing in Bothwell. David Morgan, editor of the Asheville Tribune, said he's tired of seeing his state Constitution "trashed."

Bothwell can't be forced out of office over his atheist views because the North Carolina provision is unenforceable, according to the supremacy clause of the U.S. Constitution. Six other states, Arkansas, Maryland, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas, have similar provisions barring atheist officeholders.

In 1961, the U.S. Supreme Court reaffirmed that federal law prohibits states from requiring any kind of religious test to serve in office when it ruled in favor of a Maryland atheist seeking appointment as a notary public.

But the federal protections don't necessarily spare atheist public officials from spending years defending themselves in court. Avowed atheist Herb Silverman won an eight-year court battle in 1997 when South Carolina's highest court granted him the right to be appointed as a notary despite the state's law.

Bothwell said a legal challenge to his appointment would be "fun," but believes his opponents' efforts have more to do with politics than religious beliefs.

"It's local political opponents seeking to change the outcome of an election they lost," said Bothwell, who's lived in Asheville nearly three decades and wrote the city's best-selling guide book.

Bothwell was raised a Presbyterian but began questioning Christian beliefs at a young age and considered himself an atheist by the time he was 20. He's an active member of the Unitarian Universalist Church of Asheville and he still celebrates Christmas, often hanging ornaments on his Fishhook cactus.

Bothwell said his spiritual views don't matter to most of his constituents. Bothwell is a registered Democrat but didn't run on a party ticket in the nonpartisan Council election.

Even if he can't force Bothwell out of office, Edgerton said he hopes a legal battle would ultimately force North Carolina's Legislature to determine the legality of the article of the Constitution.

"If the law is wrong, it is the obligation of the Legislature to say it's wrong," he said.

Provisions like North Carolina's tend to stay on the books because lawmakers would rather not spend time weeding out outdated laws, said Duke University Law School Professor Joseph Blocher.

"I mean there are state laws against spitting in the street," he said. "Why spend the time?"

But the battle is important to Silverman, who says there are scores of other atheist politicians afraid to "come out of the closet." He cited U.S. Rep. Pete Stark of California, the first and only congressman to publicly acknowledge he doesn't believe in God.

"We're trying to change our culture to the point where it's not political suicide," Silverman said.



And they wonder why they are referred to as "American Taliban" and "Christo-facists". mad


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