Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Here's a good one for the 45/70 crowd

Got this in an Email today





This guy and a buddy were sighting their rifles in. One of the guns was leaned up against the 4 wheeler he was standing on. The gun started to fall and I'm not sure if his buddy grabbed it, or something on the bike caught the trigger. Either way, he caught a .45-70 round right under the collar bone. I think it goes with out being said, how lucky he is to still be here.

The big hole around his shoulder blade is where the bullet entered and it traveled under his skin and exited right there on his neck, above his spinal cord! Just goes to show that he truly is LUCKY! The bullet just burned the edges of the skin of the wound that you see in the picture. He's getting better & better every day, last night he was even doing push ups!! He's finally able to use his arm again! Somehow it didn't hit anything major and basically ended up being a really bad flesh wound! It is truly a miracle that he is alive and not paralyzed!
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Imagine a HV round well over 2000fps, like say a 375HH 458 win mag, or a 416rem. Think the results would be the same for this guy? Heck even a 300 mag would have split him wide open and certainly destroyed the spine!

This was point blank from a 45/70, and it's suppose to work on a buffalo? Wow, this guy must be made of super human flesh!

Low velocity bullets simply don't have the explosive effect, or the penetration for the biggest game. But then I guess a human survivor shot in the back from point blank will still have disbelievers!

Or maybe this was just a freak event? Does anyone really think that the same hit with a 375HH or a 458 win mag would have shown the same results?

Slow heavy bullets are like a long range punch press. IIRC, I believe it was Elmer Keith who said you can eat right up to the bullet hole. Larger meplats and striking bone can cause more damage but you are not going to get the blood shot "hydrostatic" shock damage like a high velocity expanding bullet. He was very lucky it was not 1/2 inch deeper or a slightly different angle.

An interesting story was told to me by my brother, an ER physician, several years ago. A man was brought into the ER who had been shot in the shoulder at close range by a 270. Similar circumstance to this accident. He was still alive, as the cup and core bullet at close range had failed and blown up on his shoulder. More distance or a better premium bullet and he would have been dead. This story was told to me several years ago. I will have to hear it again this Christmas.

I would think that the bullet was very soft but perhaps not, one very lucky shooter to say the least. Some very ugly holes to heal up on his body. He won't be shooting for awhile I guess.

Hack--The guy wasn't shot in the back--just creased. You wouldn't be willing to stand in front of my 45-70, now would you? I didn't think so.

I shot a 1600 pound bison bull for meat two weeks ago, and used a 45-70 Sharps. Behind the shoulder, through and through with a 480 grain flat nosed bullet I cast myself. Animal was on the ground dead in no more than 5 seconds.

A friend that was with me has considerable African experience, including 5 Cape Buffalo. When he saw the amount of blood and the internal damage he was amazed, and commented that he didn't think that his 416 Rigby would do as well. The ranch manager said that it was one of the two quickest kills he had ever seen, other than a head shot. Just sayin'--

Either way, that is one lucky dude, that's all i can say. Not sure how he could come out of that without being paralyzed.....

Son of a !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That looks like it burned!

JJ, I don't know if you can conclude what you did from this incident. I'm not saying I disagree with your conclusion though. I'd certainly pick something with more oomph for cape buff than the 45-70.

I once shot a bull elk from about 150 yds off-hand. His butt was toward me with a sever quarter away from me but with his head and neck craned around back to look at me. I was shooting 250-gr Nos Part at about 2950 fps out of a 340 Wby. I caught him in the short ribs but the bullet stayed between the hide and the ribs, traveling all the way to the shoulder where it exited only to enter, again, about mid-neck, broke it and killed him where he stood.

While this is different of course it brought that scenario to mind immediately. This man was a centimeter or two from being a corpse, maybe millimeters. Had a 375 bullet taken the same path, it may have flayed open more of it's path but I can see the outcome being the same.

My take is it's less a matter of energy and more a matter of where the bullet went.

I do not have the experience with game that a lot of you have, but GSW responses have been a part of my life for over 3 years. Bullets travel around a lot in a person and the slower the bullet per given weight, typically the straighter the path. A pistol round usually travels fairly straight, yet a 223 bounces all over inside sometimes even exiting the same side of the body it enters. The twelve guage does the most distruction, and the 22 travels the oddest paths.

I once had a patient shot in the shin and we could not find an exit wound until he urinated and started screaming. It hit the urethra and esited the urethral os. ouch

Randy

I got to witness a file with slides at a State Medical Examiner's Convention. The title of the forum for LE was "Not All Homocides are Homocides".

Let's just say a 150gr. SP 30/06 into the hard palate is not always fatal when trying to kill yourself.

A second one after driving down the road a ways is.....

Oh yeah, the first one was stopped by the hard palate and exploded (even uglier than the photo above when shards exit the neck).

Pretty silly logic when just being lucky is all that saved him.

What do they say about if and buts?

Oh, I guess you figure this is easily repeatable with a .45-70 (or a 45 acp for that matter)?

I'd be willing to wager otherwise.

Just another 45-70 failure as I see it!! I wish I could post the film I have on the 45-70 being used on elk..It is pretty disgusting display of caliber failure..In fact it caused a big bruhaha between me and the ranch owner as I demanded they put an end to the killing. They were allowing the animals to suffer for perhaps 20 to 30 minutes as they stood staddle legged with a double lung shot while those bastards smoked cigerettes, joked and laughed, then I said shoot him now or I am going to and "screw your one shot kill". They were going to film only one shot kills at any expense..I shot the bull and left the ranch and never booked another hunt for him..He went broke about 6 months later and deservedly so..He was using hot Nosler handloads in a No.1 Ruger...

I read an article by a well known Gun scribe wherein a cape buffalo was killed with his 45-70 and of course the hot loaded ammo from that other guy, and it was applauded by the writter..Yet if you read the article properly you would have realized the bull went about two miles after taking more than a few solid hits in the fabled triangle..This article has been use as proof the 45-70 is a cape buffalo rifle...

It's all BS folks, if you are going to be a hunter, use enough gun or stay home, the cost of fame using lighter calibers is all about personal ego and the price is just too high IMO. I can't stop it but I sure am not required to sanction it.

Hmmm. I think I know of the writer using the old war horse on cape buff and though it can be done, I agree, never having taken a buff, it wouldn't be on even my long list of choices for that job. That writer seems to be a very common sense guy though.

But I disagree concerning elk, assuming of course, you use it at a range appropriate for it's velocity and the right bullet (was it?). I totally agree though with your attitude toward the shooter letting the animal die a slow death but the fault in this situation seems to lie with him (I'll not call him a hunter) not the cartridge. I can't stand around watching an animal, any animal, let alone one that regal and grand die that way.

There's an unlimited amount of prejudice and ignorance being expressed.

But I guess the "experts" are those who've never used a 45-70, with supreme loads at least. And "the 45/70 crowd" surely don't know much about hunting or ballistics

If the writer referred to was Brian Pearce, then it's an outright lie to say the buff went 2 miles! Actually, an unseen cow on the offside of the big old bull was killed by the first shot which completely penetrated the bulls shoulders. The bull turned to run and he gave it two more in short order wherein the bull was finished within a few yards. And that was from a 400gr that was barely going 1800 fps! A mild load (28,000 psi)from a Marlin which can easily handle over 40,000 psi.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Yeah, those .45s sure didn't work here either. But then JJ is bored and trollin'

If the naysayers would try a Ruger #1 with 350 gr Hornady Interlock bullets @ 2200 fps they would see the light.
This is not your pappy's Trapdoor Springfield!
whelennut

Marginal hits don't kill. Put one squarely through the vitals and see what happens.

The burned edges of the entry/exit is most likely cauterization done at the hospital to stop bleeding.

I have about decided that Ray is either full of chit or has never seen an animal hit properly with a 45-70 loaded with a good cast bullet at the right velocity. One thing for sure and certain, he hasn't seen my Sharps work on bison.

I vote for the full of chit part for sure. I suspect the latter is true too.

I remember that article!
I was pretty impressed with what the 45-70 did to those two buffs.
Makes me want to take my brothers 1886 to Africa.

Also, IIRC, one of the PH's present when Pearce killed the Buff said something about his 416 Rigby not penetrating as far as Brian's 45-70?
Or do I have that wrong?

I will admit here again that I ate crow regarding the 45/70 or the 45/110's abilities to kill all matter of game. With hard cast bullets they do penetrate and kill and those flat noses penetrate and kill. I would have no qualms in taking a 110 to Africa for buffalo, in fact I plan to do so. I know that they've been used to kill elephant as well, but having said all that, I have no doubt in my mind that speed kills and with a properly constructed bullet a 460 Weatherby (as an example)with softs will kill much better and with a solid outpenetrate any of the old charcoal burners any day. jorge