Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .458 Win in Africa??

This is the most sensible comment about big bores I have read in a long time. Those that know, know, those that don't, can get awefully careless with facts.

John

MD;

I started using H335 about 8 years ago (so don't have a lot of history in using it) in two rifles: first in a 350 Rem Mag for 200's and shortly thereafter in a Ruger No.1 in 45-70 Imp (long-throated)with 450's and 500's. Wasn't impressed with results in the 350 RM with its huge fire-ball at the muzzle. In the Ruger, however, it was THE powder! Before that (when the Ruger was "normal'), I touted AA2015BR for everything, as well in my 1895 Marlin. After "discovering" H335, I don't think I ever used AA2015 again. It transformed the Ruger (Imp) into the equivalent of a 458WM with a 22" barrel. I then started using it in my Marlin as well for the heavies.

So, I've used several pounds since, in three rifles: 1895 Marlin, Ruger No.1 45-70 Imp and now (last couple of years) in my CZ 458WM.

Is it as clean as TAC or AA2230? I have no way of knowing since I've not had those available to me. But, I find it no more "dirty" than H4895 or AA2460. Perhaps my first can used in the 350RM was moreso, and probably more erratic. The last two cans (1 lb canisters), or perhaps three, have been wonderfully consistent in .458" bore and they clean-up very easily, in my opinion - then, I've not worked with TAC or AA2230, as mentioned.

Sorry for the long answer to a short question, but felt I had to qualify.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Hi John;

Your experience mirrors mine!

I was about to add this note for JB: that I've also used H335 in an NEF (45-70) with 465gr hardcasts which would shoot into MOA. I killed a very nice bl. bear with that load. One frontal shot and the bruin never moved from its tracks!

My favorite N.A. hunting load for the CZ 550 is the 350TSX over a healthy dose of H4198! I used to use RL-7 but found that extreme temp. change affected MV too much, and hence POI.

I must thank you for getting me onto H4198 for the 350 TSX! Loaded to 3.45" in my CZ it leaves the muzzle at 2753 fps and is VERY consistent with an ES of 4! AND temp. stable! I killed a nice bear with that load in early September. Frontal shot at 90yds. Bullet exited in front of right hip. Never found it.

Thanks John.


Bob

www.bigbores.ca

JB;

Intended to add that I use WLRM primers exclusively. They are VERY hot! But then, you probably know that. Tests show they are hotter than F215 and have a longer burn. That may explain why I have little residue from H335... at least in part.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

CZ550,

Let me fil in a little history of H335 and then see where we are.

It was originally a military surplus powder, but that supply eventually ran out around 1990 or so, whereupon Hodgdon started getting a new version made. This proved to be a little warmer than the original, but worked about the same.

I started using H335 in the .223 in the 1980's, when it was pretty much THE powder in that cartridge among prairie dog shooters, because it metered easily and provided fine accuracy. The only real problem was that it burned very dirty, so much that after 50 rounds the inside of the barrel looked perfecly black, instead of silver. It even covered up any streaks of copper fouling, and of course the powder fouling also increased copper fouling, since powder residue is pretty abrasive. Back then this was a normal part of using ball powders, since their burning rate is mostly controlled by coatings that resist burning.

The newly-manufactured H335 seemed to burn just as dirty as the old, so when Ramshot TAC (a "new and improved" ball powder that pretty much solved the dirty-burning problem) was introduced in 2001, and proved to be very accurate in the .223, I switched and never looked back.

However, since Hodgdon now controls production of H335 today's may be a newer version that doesn't burn as dirty. If so, that would be great.

I haven't shot any in the last 8 years. I get all the press releases from Hodgdon and can't remember getting one about a cleaner-burning H335, but they may not have made anty announcement--though Alliant did, big-time, when they introduced the cleaner-burning version of Unique a few years ago. However, Hodgdon may be quiter about such things, as I don't think they announced the replacement of the mil-surp H335 with the newly manufactured stuff 20 years ago.

Thanks John for the history lesson. I was aware that it was a mil-surp ball powder to start with and used a great deal in the .223.

Your experience with H335 pre-dates mine and I'm not even sure why I had it on hand about 8 years ago, other than wanting a suitable ball powder for the 350RM, since H4895 seemed too crowded in the short case of the 350. I then used AA2015 in the 350 for a time, and within a year switched again to RL-15 which seemed ideal.

I think standards are tighter today than back then, and, as you say, competition (more options)has caused that to happen.

Appreciate your knowledge and input.

Take care,

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

We don't talk much of Rel 15 but if we did, I suspect that it would provide one of the best and more versatile powders for use in non magnum cartriges.

Who can question that? 15 THOUSAND ELEPHANTS? That's good enough for me, and I would estimate a sight more elephants than the sum total of every poster on this thread has accumulated. AA 2230 has rejuvinated the Win mag, if it needed it. I don't think it did.

Well ... Harland in his books does question the 458WinMag despite his obvious success (with a PF rifle!!) and recommends the best thing that can be done to a CZ/Brno is to rechamber to 458Lott. He also names the 458WinMag and the 416Rem as being two cartridges were fresh ammunition is important. Quality control issues with earlier ammunition are also acknowledged. Elsewhere he's mentioned that he did have elephants not go done that he felt should have, but never followed up to determine why ... he just shot them again.
Cheers...
Con

Some ambivalence and ambiguity, eh Con?

Some people are never happy with 100%. They must strive for 101%! And without doubt would never be satisfied with 120% either if it were achievable. The problem isn't the ballistics but the psyche.

Why would anyone, who buys a very fine CZ 550 in .458WM, feel they NEED more as they would already have more than ample in their .458WM, and they also have the equivalent of a Lott if they handload?

Me? I'm usually happy with 95%. But then life is so full of misses and disappointments that I can live with less than that.
100% is NEVER attainable in all of life, even in the hunting fields if you spend more time hunting than dreaming.

A CZ 550 in .458WM can do it all in big game hunting anywhere in the world, whatever the legal target. Nothing more is needed. And most of the time it isn't needed. Today, my CZ is my go-to rifle for most hunting of big game, for what I hunt and where I hunt. That's moose and black bear. If I were ever to make it to Africa again, with the chance to hunt buff or ele, that would be my rifle. Period. End of discussion.

Those who change their CZ 550 in .458WM into a Lott will never be satisfied either. They will start looking at 450 Dakotas, .500's, etc.

Go to the AR forum and check out their Big Bores section and you'll see what I mean.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I'm reminded of something my PH said to me when I questioned performance of my 9.3. He said "How much deader than dead do you want?"

Totally agree ... isn't it the uncertainty that makes hunting so much fun and challenging? Ultimately the psyche of the person and their skill at arms wins the day, Manners never wanted for more than a 375H&H, Bell promoted his small-bores feeling that more was not required, Cotter used a 32Winchester until it ultimately proved inadequate. In the majority of circumstances the man maketh the tool, not vice versa.
Cheers...
Con

I have a true love affair with my Model 70 .375. It gives me great pleasure just to shoot it occasionally at the range. I don't shoot it excessively, because it is unerringly accurate and I don't want to burn out that wonderful barrel. Winchester got it right on this one.

But...after my last buffalo hunt, I bought a .458 Win, almost identical to my PH's, but it's on a LH Ruger African action instead of a Husqvarna push feed, which has served him well for over twenty years. I would prefer a Dakota Action, or a model 70, as the Ruger is not a true CRF, as my guinsmith mentioned the day I took delivery. He's right. It's half push feed and half CRF. But it works if I do my part.

The buff, shot through the heart and dead on his feet, naturally didn't know it and turned to charge. We were in heavy cover, so my PH spined him from ten yards through a thorn bush with a Hornady solid.

I was impressed with the .458's performance. I have already mentioned his standard load of 74 grains of AA 2230 behind a 500 grain bullet, soft and solid. I saw what that solid could do.

I have no trouble with the increased recoil impulse. I'm 67 and weigh 155, but I can handle it. I have only fired about forty rounds through it so far, but I am shooting it very accurately at 25 and 50 yards with the great NECG sight combo. My rifle weighs 8.5 pounds in irons. The balance is perfect. I'm going to scope it, which will bring it up to around ten pounds, a perfect weight for this 22" barreled rifle.

I would hunt anything on earth with my .375. I can shoot it and I have faith in the combination of me and my .375. But I will develop confidence in the .458 as I shoot it more and more. With my PH's load, it will kill anything on earth, as long as I do my job and place the bullet precisely.

If a .470 NE at 2150 fps is the choice of more double rifle owners than any other, then a .458 Winchester mag attaining velocities of 2150 with a 500 grain bullet should do just as well.

The history of African hunting proves the .458 Win is a very viable caliber. No amount of hairsplitting and over-analyzing will change my opinion. Fifteen thousand-plus dead elephants killed by three guys with Win mags proves the viability of the .458 Winchester magnum beyond any reasonable doubt for a reasonable man, and I am exactly that.

I don't get emotionally involved in the minutiae of fifty or a hundred feet per second, as long at I'm getting over 2100. And I am. So that's my two cents, or maybe my five cents, since this post is a bit longer than I intended.

I guess it all boils down to a personal choice and we can all rationalize our choices. I purchase rifles to hunt with but who knows one day I may just want to blow big holes in paper and the weight of the rifles and muzzle brakes do not matter.

The CZ is a large action and the 458 win. mag. does not require such a large action....one of the benefits of the win. mag. is it can be housed in a standard action which makes for a lighter, timmer rifle....but to each his own and that's the way it should be.

AussieGunWriter......I do believe there was a man who wrote an article back in the 1980's on that vary same subject! Selection of the best rifle on an African Safari etc. The gentleman's name was Peter Hathaway Capstick. The #1 pick was the .375H&H caliber.

Never read much Capstick, no books, 1, perhaps 2 articles.

JW

Richard Harlan remains a big fan of the 458wm. I have traded comms with him on it and he is as ardent a believer now as when he was a Rhodesian Parks Warden.

He does like to load his rifle to 2150fps now, and does it using Somchem powders. But the Winchester factory ammo he used on so many elephants probably chrono'd around 2050fps, at least it did for those who tested it.

{As an aside, a Chronograph can be a hell of thing, instilling (over)confidence in bullet/velocity combos that don't deserve it and impairing confidence in proven bullet/velocity combos the track record of which ought to reinforce confidence.}

Of course, 2050fps is about the field velocity of several of the different 450NE's and the 470 too. For example, the nominal velocity of the historic 470 load is 2125fps from a 31" barrel. Lop five, six or seven inches off the barrel...

Run a .474" solid at 2050fps and a similar .458" solid at the same speed and the .458" solid will penetrate better. But run the .458" bullet at 2150fps and it will far surpass its performance at 2050fps. The difference is visible on buff and on elephants.

JPK

Who started the rumor that the Lott only reaches 2250 FPS, that's just not right, not even close. Just because somebody puts something like that in print, is isn't necessarily fact..

Any Lott can safely shoot a 500 gr. bullet at 2350 FPS, and in a 26 inch barrel on one gun I got 2501 FPS and a flat primer and an extractor mark, but no sticky bolt that I could detect, but that was probably too hot of a load, but the primer was firm after two firings of that load, a bit loose on the 3rd...I cut back 4 grs. to 84 grs of IMR-4320 and determined that 84 grs. is a safe but max load in all .458 Lotts that I have worked with.

My accuracy load and the load I always used was 83 grs. of IMR-4320 for a tad over 2300 FPS. That is an awesome killer of anything that walks, talks, breaths or crawls..I played with 450 gr. bullets in the Lott and they really cooked but penetration was less in my box and on game, I attribute the less penetration to the resistence set up by the higher velocity. My therory only.

That is also an awesome amount of recoil to deal with, at least for me. I can shoot it but I have to concentrate to do so..Because of that I have been shooting the 404, 416s ever since and that is my caliber of choice, hands down..

If the cartridge drawings I've looked at are correct, the Lott enjoys a roughly 12% increase in case capacity over the Win.( 144gr of water vs 129gr). Just how does one get a 9-15% increase in muzzle velocity, given such a modest increase in capacity. High pressure, that's how! There are certain mathematical laws you simply can't overcome or override with how you think or feel your load is performing. You can ignore it if you like. I certainly don't want to be sitting at a bench within the blast zone of someone firing such miracle loads in their Lott!

Jeff

Mr. Atkinson I will look for the article in which Jack Lott himself wrote on the .458-LOTT. I am very positive he got 2300fps or faster in his test loads. The article shows him shooting that .458-LOTT while standing erect and the muzzle jump that .458-LOTT presented was a bunch in that picture. I would be willing to say that the .458-LOTT can reach 2350fps with no sweat! I also remember a gunsmith, telling me he had gotten 2350fps out of a .458 win mag, that he rechambered to the .458-LOTT caliber back in 1989.