Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Here's a good one for the 45/70 crowd

The Marlin Lever action will handle some heavy loads, but the Ruger # 1 is even stronger. Mine would shoot a Lyman 555 gr flatnose cast from pure linotype as fast as any sane person would want. I never did hunt anything dangerous with it but I was also testing the Barnes 400 gr. semi-spitzer with the .049" jacket. The Ken Waters PET LOADS lists a charge of 55 grs IMR 3031 and a 400 gr bullet at 2,053 fps.!
I'm sure Buffalo have been killed with a lot less! Or not?
whelennut

Yup..A 525 grain .460 diameter cast bullet at 1820 fps out of only a 22" barrel and under 40,000 PSI(Pressure tested at White Labs) is a marginal Deer caliber.

Dang..I guess Ray has seen tougher Deer here in Idaho than I have in the last 61 years.

Jayco

Jorge,
If I ever do get a chance to hunt buffalo(I never have yet) I do think I would be more comfortable with my 416 Rigby and 400gr Aframes or solids, depending upon what the PH recommended-I just thought this was an interesting thread and I do remember being a bit surprised by Pearce's results with that 45-70 load.
Just some thoughts from the 'cheap seats!'

If memeory serves me Brian Pierce used a 405 grain "Cor-Bon" aka SAAMI compliant(28,000 for the 45-70) load.It does say something about velocity and penetration,though.His load was something like 1600 fps with a 405 grain.

I have it somewhere as it was impressive,the penetration.

Jayco

Jayco,
Thank you.
I have that article buried someplace, I think I will go look for it over the holidays.

While I have no experience with it I'm not sure the 460 B uses all that velocity to good effect, does it? Probably partly due to the fact humans have to handle and shoot it, the "African" cartridges have historically gone in the 2100-2400 fps range because that has been found to work.

John Taffin mentions the Linebaugh test in which a hard cast 45-70 525-gr or so at 1550 fps out penetrated a 500 NE incl a 458 Win solid. What the 460 B would do with a solid I don't know but vel can be the enemy of penetration. In medicine we have a saying that, "better can be the enemy of good."

I have no dog in this little argument so carry on and have a very good Christmas all.

Not bad for a marginal Deer cartridge.



Jayco

logcutter:

Actually, it was a 400gr FN, FMJ at 1800 fps (approximate). Yeah, on the box it said 1600+, but from his 1972 vintage Marlin (22"), it gave about 1800 fps, according to the article. Still within 28,000 cup/psi.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Yep, you're right, it was a 405gr. I too have kept that article for reference.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

That picture is from Brians article on the 45-70 and some pressures he wrote on what he thinks is possible..



Jayco

CZ:

My cast load in the 45-70 is a 425 grain at 1834 fps in my Guide Gun under 35,000 PSI(Pressure Checked)with my components.

I am not here to say the 45-70 is equal to the 458 Win Mag or it should be the choice for Africa,just saying people like Ray Atkinson, who I normally pay attention to,have such a hard on for the 45-70 there completely irresponsible and "un professional" in there replies to it.

Just saying...

Jayco

LogCutter.....I do love my lever guns and that 1895 Marlin 45/70 but when you been around this planet for as long as Father Time Atkinson, you do gain knowledge that others can not see, "the forest for the trees" simply put.

Now these kids dreams (cowboy enhanced perhaps) of what the 45/70 is and what it was meant to do and what you might get away with once or twice, is by no means the absolute in the day to day use of a "dangerous game rifle" understand.
It is the same Bull Crap that has gone on with the .270 Winchester can be used to take anything on the planet attitude by those who are infatuated with the caliber etc.

I am far from being an expert on the hunting of dangerous game animals but I can tell you that even with those proper caliber rifles, there are hunters killed every friggin year with the right equiptment. So now factor in a caliber that is NOT a dangerous game rifle and see how long you would carry on in the wild of the Dark Continent hunting Buff, Elephant, Lion & Hippo my dear sir.

Mr. Atkinson has conveyed his thoughts on the 45/70 caliber and sometimes it is like hitting your head against the wall because some people will "never" understand, why you don't walk off the end of the pier until you take that last step and your arse hits the water below.

Logcutter, and CZ,
Read Brians article carefully, do you know how far that bull went before he died? That milage and time element is the most dangerous time in a DG hunters life. that bull made a lot of tracks with a lot of hits....You may think you can rewrite the rules on what it takes to kill a Cape Buffalo but thats just folley, that rule was established years ago, and the 45-70 was not there, it does not have the velocity or energy figure to do so properly..A 22 Hornet can kill a buff, and has, but its not a buff gun.

I don't have a "hard on" for the 45-70, I have an opinnion based on the number of failures I have seen with it and based on using it on elk, that is where we get our opinnions.

Sir, Your not required to accept my opinnion, but you should not deny me the right to express it, nor call me unprofessional, I am professional, and would bet my dollars to coffee and donuts that I have shot a hell of a lot more dangerous game than you...

Inasmuch as you live in Idaho, if you ever get down this way I would be glad to enlighten you on some 45-70 elk kills I have on film and with a Ruger No.1 and some fairly warm loads. Be glad to show them to you.

Ray, your argument doesn't hold water. Haven't you seen the video of the Cape that was shot numerous times with a 500 and it kept going. What is your excuse for that instance?

"Now these kids dreams (cowboy enhanced perhaps) of what the 45/70 is and what it was meant to do and what you might get away with once or twice, is by no means the absolute in the day to day use of a "dangerous game rifle" understand.
It is the same Bull Crap that has gone on with the .270 Winchester can be used to take anything on the planet attitude by those who are infatuated with the caliber etc."

Last fall I watched a couple of guys shoot a pronghorn fawn four times with .270's. The fawn was still going and dragging its entrails, when my buddy shot it in the head with a .257Bob - killed it! Not saying that a .270 isn't adequate for fawn antelope - but from emperical evidence it is definitely inferior to the 'Bob....

Have a Merry Christmas!

Johnny $

Yup, .270s can't kill anything bigger than jackrabbits. Certainly not an antelope. Anyone knows that.

.45-70 are really just the same as a .270 without the range - a 50 yd rabbit rifle where the .270 is a 100 yds rabbit gun.

Meanwhile, Ray's fabled .25-35 will kill elk to 3000 yds - off hand from horseback of course (without the helmet ).

This place is so much fun

I like the old phrase sometimes applied to various things which goes something like: "What you can't do with said combo (rifle, cartridge, bullet) says more about the user than the tools." That most certainly applies to the 45-70 and elk. It doesn't mean the old 45 is equal to being ideal for the big African bruisers. Then again, a questionably credible post using an accidental flesh wound to infer anything about a rifle, cartridge, or bullet and its use on African game is what?

Like the 30-06 in North America, the 45-70 in capable hands is plenty of gun -within its range- for most stuff that lives and breathes on this planet. A 416 anything in the wrong hands will no doubt be a dismal failure too often even on whitetails however.

I would use the stiff 45-70 on any game that naturally runs away from you and then be very careful of placement, like we are always supposed to do anyway. I would not though choose to use it on big game that might to choose to run at and through you though it obviously can be done.



The two bullest on the left are 405-gr Laser Cast, the second hit a 450 lb cow elk a little high tight behind the should as she was quartering strongly toward me. It took out the aorta, smashed many veterbral bodies, broke her opposite hip and was found in the ham opposite of the side of entry. It traversed some 45" of tissue and no doubt would have exited had it not toured through so much bone which no doubt also deformed it.

The cow was "slammed" to the ground, feebly got up, went 25 yds., laid down and I finished an already finished animal. I have no compunctions on using this load on a big bull provided the range is reasonable and I can put that thumb-sized slug through the pumps or bellows.

Having said that, I would be loathe to generally go against either JJH or Ray's advice because of their experience which exceeds mine.

edited to add that in regard to my first remark, there is an AK bear guide whose name escapes me now and I'm sure more than one, who carried a 45-70 successfully for clean-up work on browns.

It's only Merry Christmas from me today to all of you guys!!!

Ray

Part of my family grew up in Twin Falls.My uncle ran the International Harvester dealership for years and sold it a few back.The rest of that clan moved up to the Sun Valley area and none of them were hunters.My first hunt was in the Selway in the very early 50's back when Elk hunting was at it's best in my opinion.

Merry Christmas.

Jayco

That's what happens with a correct bullet and load.