Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Here's a good one for the 45/70 crowd

jwp475--That is exactly the problem. People are using the wrong bullet at the wrong velocity. We use a 480 to 520 grain flat nosed bullet at 1250 fps, or a 511 to 520 grain round nosed bullet at 1200 to 1300 fps and shoot all the way through them. On the shoulder and out the other shoulder, or behind the shoulder, it makes no difference.

The bull shot with the 505 Gibbs was hit behind, not on the shoulder, nearly broadside. There was no exit wound. The guy at the meat processing plant found the bullet, and is sending it to me.

I shot a Bull Bison with a 416 Rigby in the rib cage with no exit. Yet my 500 Linebaugh with a 525 grain flat point hard cast at 1100 FPS will exit everytime and so will the 475 with a 420 grain at 1380 FPS.
People use the incorrect bullet for the task and then dog the caliber. Seems it never stops..........

We shot a bull with my 45-70 at the same ranch a couple of weeks before the gentleman was there with the Gibbs. I had a friend with me that has hunted Africa a half dozen times and has five Cape Buffalo to his credit. When he saw the pass through and the damage the cast flat nosed bullet did, he commented that he didn't think his 416 Rigby would any better.

He was so taken with the rifle and the load that he wanted to buy it from me, and I sold it to him. I don't think that will be the last animal taken with that rifle.

When the perfect shot is made, most anything will kill. A perfect shot is easy to make at 60 yards with million power scope and a perfectly placed rest if the shooter is not afraid of his firearm.

While my first Cape Buffalo was shot head on from that perfect rest using a 416 rem mag with a 6 power scope and pushing 350 grain A Frames resulting in a DRT, the rest were a little more interesting. With that hit, I think most any reasonable cartridge would have had the same results.

The next two buffalo were a whole different story. I say two because they were at the same time from about 5o feet, coming strait at me in the long grass. I that instance I had what I consider the minimum caliber for those circumstances, a 470 double. Both were hit in the chest and went down in a heap. One was center punched, the other was not. For those advocating using anything less under those circumstances, I wish you luck.

On another the shot was crossing, at 100+ yards. I was using the 416 Rem Mag. The shot was slightly back of shoulder, at which the buff move off. After about 25 yds he stopped and turned, intentions unknown. A second shot in the same spot put him down. A third finisher was required. Again I was using the 416 Rem Mag, 350 grain A Frames at 2600 fps. While they did not exit, they were under the skin on the off side. Not perfect shots. Would something less have done the same under those circumstances? I think not.

When hunting dangerous game you never know what will happen. The perfect setup may never present itself, and you may find yourself in the absolute worst situation, how your are armed may determine if you walk back to camp or are scraped up and carried back in a can.

45/70 debate aside, I wonder what the collective brainpower of the gomers that would leave a loaded and cocked rifle leaning on a 4 wheeler might be. This is more about mishandling of a firearm than an argument about cartridge effectiveness. In the hands of these gomers the 45/70 is probably a bad round for shooting at watermelons.
pak

goodnews,

I think quite a few alaskan guides use the .45/70 for brown bear. I am sure, though, you are thinking of Ed Stevenson of Sheep River Hunting Camps. http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm

Ed is going on his 50th season in the bush after brown bear. In those years he used everything from 6,5s to .375s, from bolts over autos to levers.

His standby were 1886s and 1895s in .45/70. In recent years he has gone to a Marlin .45/70, because it carries so nicely.

The load he uses? 400 gr. GS Custom FN. Plain works for brown bear in the thick stuff.

Cmg, Yes, that's the one.

As logcutter put it, a blessed Christmas to you all and I wish the best to all in the New Year.

goodnews,

blessed christmas to you and yours, too.

Ed is one, who influenced me in the choice of my rifles.

After reading about him, I got to know him and now guide for him in AK.

He turned 80 this year and after a little low time, is going strong.

sharpsguy, sir he shot 5 buffalo. so then you must agree he is a novice. by default you agree that he is a beginner an well on his way to to become experienced. but not just yet.is someone that have taken 5 white tail an experienced hunter? can i quote what he has to say about white tail as the truth?

i know africa is foreign to most people. good hunters have been taking dgame there for more than a century, can we at least let our selves be guided by their guidelines.

i havnt seen one of them referring the 45-70 as THE calibre to take the cape.why are so many people showing disrespect to a generation of so called white hunters of africa in saying they dont know what they are talking about when they dont recommend the 45-70.

when i am hunting the americas i ask around from the guys that know the lay of the land and i bring along accordingly.

so why do you guys not show the same respect for the experienced african hunters when they tell you rather bring something stronger than the 45-70?.

this is not an armchair discussion you will meet something over here that wants to kill you with its last breath.

this is not for espn or the out doors channel or to win an argumant, this is plain good advice.

will the 45-70 do the job? most probably. is there something out there that can do the job better? hell yes!!!! so why when you are staking your live are you going to take the second best thing?.



sir i beg of you to reconsider. please!!

LT_DAN--I'm not trying to start a pissing contest, but I would say that someone who has taken 5 Cape Buffalo is at least qualified to comment on the performance of his bullets on the animals he has taken as compared to what he saw of the 45-70 on an American bison bull. If someone has taken 5 whitetail deer, he is at least qualified to comment on his bullet performance on those animals.

FWIW, I have never taken a Cape Buffalo, but I certainly intend to, if not in 2010, at least by 2011. And I intend to use my 45-70. Here's why. It is damned accurate. I can hit eggs all day long at 50 yards with it with open iron sights. And shooting cast bullets in the 500 grain weight range it will penetrate with most of the vaunted African cartridges, and out penetrate most of them.

In Africa,I have killed two kudu, a blue wildebeast, a black wildebeast, a gemsbok and a zebra as well as a number of smaller animals with the Sharps. I have shot ALL THE WAY THROUGH all of them, and have not recovered a single bullet. I shot the black wildebeast in the rear end for a finishing shot after I broke both of his front shoulders on the first shot. The second shot passed completely through him lengthwise, and exited his chest. That is roughly 70 inches of penetration. Before I shot the zebra, my PH commented that he thought my string of pass throughs would be broken. I asked him why, and he said that "a 375 H&H wouldn't do it." I told him I would shoot the zebra on an angle from shoulder to ham to see if I could shoot through him on a diagonal. I did, and got a complete pass through with a 511 grain paper patched bullet. After he saw that, the PH said that I would have no problem whatever with a Cape Buffalo with the Sharps.

I understand about tradition. I also understand that this grand old American rifle has plenty of horsepower and range if it is loaded properly and shot by a man who truly knows how to use it. Bison can be damned hard to kill. Just ask the Namibian PH that shot one six times over here last year with a 458 Win. He is a friend of mine, and was astounded that the animal took six good hits before it went down.

You boys that have your knickers in a wad need to back up and take a deep breath. The Good Old Boy Club in Africa doesn't have the only rifles and cartridges in the world that will take dangerous game. There are a couple of 130 year old rifles and cartridges on this side of the pond that work pretty well, too.

sharpsguy, someone that has taken only 5 buffalo has NO business in stating anything. i am sorry that this sounds wierd, i truly am. never the less it is fact.

sir i do not mean to offend you i assure you, please take what i say as sincere as one can convey them over the net. i am sure that if you and i where next to a campfire in the bush and we could speak person to person , we would understand each other or at the worst agree to disagree.

please come and visit us with your trusted 45-70 and make up your own mind. there are a few ph's that cater for the 45-70, and they are good and professional, you can trust them.

let us know of your results and good hunting.

best wishes from the dark continent

LT Dan,
From the outside looking in, I think the umbrage that is taken is not with the cartridges you recommend, but what we perceive as your possible lack of familiarity with what cartridges like the .45-70, .45-90 and .50-90 are capable of doing.

Expat

Exactly.... How many Buff have the African guide seen shot with a proper load in a 45-70? There are numerous example of 458's ad larger that failed with bullets that weren't up to the task

I have a pretty extensive Africana book collection, have been to Africa three times and only shot two buffalo, but I've been around this hobby a long time and either know or know of LOTS of PHs and clients with literally hundreds of buffalo & elephant to their credit. Among my many books there are stories of buffalo & elephant taken with Spears, bows (compound & recurve) all sorts of BP rifles & cartridges, even with a 22 short! So the differentiation is one of "adequate" or good enough to mitigate any possible ramifications of poor shot placement or an unprovoked charge. The 45/70 is certainly ADEQUATE to take buffalo and even elephant,( hell, I'm working up a hunt to take my 45-110 Sharps for buffalo, but never elephant, I'm not stupid) but it is FAR cry from an optimum caliber. Sure, a cast hardened 45 @ 12-1300 fps will shoot clean through a buffalo, but a Solid out of a modern 458 will do that and more, so those of you that compare a hard cast 45/70 to a soft point 458 and claim more penetration is just not a valid measure of effectiveness. Oh and by the way, with today's premium bullets there are very few, very few PHs that recommend solids for buffalo anymore.

If you want to shoot a buffalo with a 45/70 go right ahead! it's your hunt! but if that caliber was the cat's meow, you'd find it all over the place in Africa as you find other American calibers like the 06 and the 458 Win Mag. The number of hunters using 45/70s in Africa is statistically insignificant and as far as PH use it is NON-EXISTENT. Finally, to even consider it's use on elephant, again do it, hell. people use bows & arrows, but not me, not ever. And one more thing, a Bison ain't no Cape Buffalo. jorge

So you're saying that all of Elmer Keith's writings on proper buffalo rifles is BS?I don't believe he shot more than 4 or 5 cape buffalo and 2 bison in his life.

Brian.

I'm sorry but this is funny..Because the Top Dogs could not agree on the 458 Win Mag in Africa,one Top Dog went to not just one,but two 45-70 threads on the African Forum and the 458 Win Mag thread went bye bye.

Yooz guys are funny but it is the net!

Jayco

I would be enlightened if anyone could name me those "quite a few" Alaskan Brown Bear guides that pack a 45-70 for backup?

I have made my statement to the extent that I find the fantasy surrounding the 45-70 to be false and without merit, at least based on my experience with the cartridge, and its too late for me to transgress, I do however wish that I had never bothered to comment on it..I so tire of having to keep a get away horse tied out behind the house!

I just finished watching Boddington's new video on Rifles for Africa where he covers the whole gambit from dik-dik to elephant and from the 22lr to the 700 NE. Great video. Part of the video deals with PH personal preferences and a couple of interviews with them. The one germane to the topic at hand was the interview with Barry Duckworth and the gent who wrote the lates grat book on elephant hunting, Harlan I believe is his last name. Together their kils number in the thousands of elephants. Both used the 458 Win mag almost exlusively and they went into great detail about the early problems with poor penetration of same as a result of Ball powders and poor velocities or "squib loads" (sic) of 1850-1900 fps.

They were emphatic that with today's powders and modern 450-500gr solids, the 458WM at 2150 is a real killer on jumbos. So one has to ask if the 458 suffered from poor penetration under 2000 fps, how can the 45/70 be considered as even "adequate" at 1300 or even at 1800 fps? I also found it noteworthy that a lot of American calibers were mentioned, especially the 06 & 270 as great for PG. There was ZERO menttionof the 45/70. Zip, Nada. Lastly, I'm proud to say that I count Craig as a friend and we've spoken at length about the 45/70. If you read my post above, his views are almost identical. Take that for what it's worth, he only been on ninety-seven safaris at last count...jorge

BrentD,
Like so many you reach out to make a point by suggesting that I killed elk at 3000 yds. with a 25-35, a feeble attempt at humor but funny all the same and I got a good laugh out of it..but the fact is I have killed a number of elk with the 25-35 carbine, but alas they were never shot at over 100 yards and only a few past 75 yards and all were broadside. True, a 45-70 would work under the same conditions...but neither IMO are elk rifles for the once a year hunter in todays hard elk hunting conditions that will certainly get worse with the advent of the wolf infestation...

All I am saying is if you want to be successful with any degree of regularity in today elk country where you will see perhaps one or two good bulls in a season of hunting the use a caliber that will handle any conditions, thus my choice of a 300 H&H or a 338 Win. I consider the 30-06 with 200 or 220 gr. Nosler my choice of minimum today...

jeorge1

I don't have a clue where that post directed at me came from.I have repeatedly said here and at AR that if I went to Africa,I would choose another caliber above the 45-70..My POINT is some of you guys get your rocks off knocking it and with the wrong data and bullets..Every knot head knows the 45-70 is not a 458 Win Mag but what is the purpose of continual knocking of a fine caliber set off by JJ Hack the 7MM Hit 'em again guy to rid the 458 Win Mag thread few of you agreed on.

With respect..Ray is just full of sheet on the 45-70 and it's ability to kill Elk.Maybe in his time with SAAMI loads and 28,000 as a limit and all the bullet that fell into that category,not the North Fork/Swift A-Frame/Nosler and others..

You guys are nuts..What is the purpose of knocking the 45-70????????????JJ started this not a 45-70 guy..Hint/Hint...

Jayco