Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles New Win Brass

I have been slowly learning to reload for a few years now. I noticed that the last 4-5 50 rd bags of Win Brass have neck runout of .0035-.005. The first 20 bags I bought I never checked, and it seems last year I bought only about 4 bags and most whee .002 or less.

I have dies that have produced .002 or less in all my calibers. If I fireform this brass and then resize in my dies, can I expect my brass to come into tolerance, or with this much runout is there a high probablility this is bad brass?

P.S. I don't typically spend the time/money to simply fireform, should I. I don't expect high level of accuracy on the first go round either though.

Well you didn't mention caliber. On a 22 Hornet it MIGHT be an issue, on a 375 H&H it wouldn't mean a whit.

A high level of accuracy is also too vague. I can get 1 MOA or better off any 224 on up caliber with new brass. Run it over the expander ball in your die and chamfer the neck. That's all.

If, on the other hand, if you are a 1000 yd benchrest shooter, it's a whole different world.

These are 25-06. I believe this rifle is capable of sub-moa, but not benchrest accuracy. I expect .02 runout, so I will define my question as, with out of the bag Win brass showing .035 to .050, can I expect after the first firing, for my current dies that are capable of .001-.002 runout to size to my "expectation".

What kind of accuracy are they yielding right now as is? Did you try neck turning?

My Browning 1885 Wyoming Centennial (the bottom one, first picture) will do 1" or less with brand new WRA brass prepared as I described. If your dies are that precise why not just FL size them prior to loading, check OAL, trim if necessary and chamfer? IMO you are spending way too much time on theoretical stuff. Put the rubber on the road and see what happens. IME WRA brass is the best of the big guys. Their 25-06 is the only one that will stand up to being made into 22-06s (second picture) and slamming out a 70 gr TSX at 3700 fps for 10 reloads.

oldman,

FL Resizing does not change the runout.

So what neck runout are you getting, especially with your virgin brass?

P.S. At this point I don't turn necks. That may be the next stage.

You have to take neck runout figures with a grain of salt for brass that's fresh out of the bag. The case bodies are rarely perfectly round and often have dings where the support points for the runout fixture ride.

The thing that's good to check before the first firing is the uniformity of the neck walls.

What MM said. I just fired a new batch of WW .223 that had some with 5-7 thousandths new. After the first firing, it's all 1-2 thousandths on the neck.

The firing in a chamber changes runout, but FL sizing in a fine die does not. Better think on that.....

Yes, brass that is once fired and then FL sized in a good die often does measure straighter than new brass that has been run through the FL die.

BKondeff:

I�ve been reloading for less than ten years and just started paying attention to runout within the last year. So I�ve asked similar questions on this forum and gotten some really good information. In the process I�ve developed a feel for which posters know their stuff. IMHO, Mathman is one of those you should listen to on these topics. This is a great place to get information, once you figure out how to weed through the BS.




I did. Some of my new brass measured 5-7 thousandths after sizing, and 1-2 thousandths after firing once and re-sizing. It's not a complex matter.

You�ve fallen into the trap of answering the question you wanted to answer, rather than the question the original poster asked, providing information that�s tangential at best. The fact that your rifle(s) shoot handloads with new brass accurately has no bearing on his question, which was whether firing new brass would tend to improve neck runout. Although providing photos of your rifles and testimony on your prowess with them does serve to illuminate your boundless knowledge, and also tends to confirm the fit of the sobriquet �pompous twit.�

The answer, as far as the effect (on runout) of both sizing new brass and firing new brass lies in Mathman�s first post. Maybe you should go back and read that again. As he pointed out, new brass commonly has dings and indentations on the body up near the shoulder, which is where the brass is cradled when you measure runout, obviously affecting those measurments. Sizing new brass compresses the case body, which does nothing to fix indentations. That can only be done by expanding the brass from the inside, in other words, firing it. Again, no rocket science degree required. Ever notice how fired brass no longer has the dents and indentations?

If he was a "1000 yd benchrest shooter," he wouldn't have posted what he did. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. No offense intended, BKondeff, it's just that a "1,000 yard benchrest shooter" would know the answer to your question. But throwing that in is a nice touch, and serves to once again illuminate the boundless knowledge of the poster by providing you with information you didn't ask about.

"If he WERE a 1000 yard benrchrest shooter" is what, I assume you intended to say...right?

I wonder why he just doesn't load em' up and shoot the F-ing rifle rather than obsessing over a problem that may not be one.

This 5 group was shot with a new Marlin XLC in 270 that had seen about 20 rounds, with new Remington brass, prepares as I suggested. Reasonably good for a rig that in total just broke the $600 mark. Time worrying over "could be's" is time spent NOT shooting....

Wow, you managed to wedge in another reference to your shooting prowess, while not responding to the original poster's question once again; really useful information, that. Answering the question not asked.

Here's a question for you though--how many benchrest shooters do you suppose use new brass for their matches? Why do you suppose that is?

As a wise man once said: "pompous twit."

Right on......

Back in the day when new brass came in boxes with each case individually packed like ammo, dents and dings weren't very common, but now that they come in bags like jelly beans.........


Casey

A possibility, but not necessarily a probability. Brass these days suffers quite a bit of "contusions" before it lands on our reloading benches. Try resizing and see if that improves the runout on the neck of the empty brass. And compare it to a fired, resized, empty case from a previous lot of brass.

When you were measuring runout before, were yu measuring on the bullet with finished ammo, or were you measuring runout on the neck of the finished ammo?


Casey

As mentioned, I did FL resize some brass which did not change the runout much but did make the mouths much prettier. I figured, as virgin cases are already at factory(min) sizes, I would need to expand them by firing them before getting the real benefit of FL resizing. I guess I am wrong on that based on the multiple responses.

To respond to Oldman, the reason I didn't just go shoot it, is that if the brass where bad, and I bought multiple bags of it in this lot, I currently have a chance to return it. I also planned to load some round in the very expensive Barnes TSX, so I hoped to get some advice before plowing ahead.

P.S. I have shot many groups with my rifles in the .3,.4 and .5s but don't use that as difinitive results as it doesn't always shoot those and understanding the differences between when it does and doesn't shoot well is how I will learn to be a better reloader.

Have you measured neck wall thickness with a ball mic?

When running the expander ball of the die through when resizing, it should take care of most of the dents and dings in the neck, but not the body.

Consequently, that doesn't address any dents in the body(although they may be minor and difficult to detect by eye). When spinning the case on a concentricity gauge, and measuring on the neck with the dial indicator, the body is riding on the two blocks, and deformities on the body could be showing up on the neck, when the neck isn't the culprit.

As an experiment, put the dial indicator on the body of a few cases and see how concentric they are reading.


Casey

To start with fireforming with Barnes (only jacketed bullet I use for hunting) is a waste of $. I buy Hornady or Midway in boxes of 500 when available. If not I use cast bullets.

If you are talking about big game HUNTING accuracy, 1.5 MOA will kill anything you want to shoot at within an ethical range envelope (mine is 400 yards). I have never met a WRA case that won't do 1.5 MOA out of the bag in a rifle that will: like a 700, M70, Marlin XL, TC ICON, Kimber 84 etc.

Do you think there is a bit of difference between the brass you get in a regular factory loaded shells and the bag of new empties? My Federal Premium 300 H&H 180 TSX factory ammo will shoot just as well as any of my 180 handloads in a hunting rifle.

As for my shooting prowess, outside of trigger control, it has little impact off a bench rest. In field shooting tens of 1000s of rounds of clays, skeet, trap and four position match shooting do help me compensate for being old with corrected vision.

Lets just say in the last 10 years, every big game animal I shot at from 18 to 352 yards, save one, was killed with one shot with a Barnes X, TSX, sabot Barnes deerslug or 61 caliber lead bullet. The "save one" was a Mulie I missed at 80 yards off sticks, him standing broadside....still cant explain that one!

New WW brass right out of the bag will shoot sub MOA. I have also found that using a die with an expander ball will increase neck runout on new brass. I prefer to resize then use a Sinclair expander mandrel to give me .002 tension and slightly less runout.