Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles M77 or M70

BTW, you will never convince me that you know what billet is. I have a masters in industrial engineering and process design. I am not trying to offend anyone, but I hate to see false information spewed as truth.

Both of you idiots need to read the reference I posted.....
And its a travesty that you can not understand Otteson's referance to the casting, pre machining as billet. Especially given that one of you claims to have a engineering degree.

I dont need to read a reference that claims that investment casting and billet machining are one and the same, as that is what you are saying. If I have misunderstood you, I apoligize, but that is what I have gathered.

Thats not what I said nor what Otteson said....

Well then, by all means I apologize. Seems that we may just have a really big misunderstanding here.

Oh my!

Borden, Hall, Nesika, McMillan, H-S Precision, BAT, Granite Mountain, NULA, Ed Brown, Sako, Kimber, CZ, Remington, Winchester, Surgeon, Farley (started with casting and now uses machined billet), Lawton, Kelby, Stiller, Pierce,....etc. all have it wrong?

Matt, I'm about to take my belt off!!

....................crf!.................Go find some Ruger Hawkeyes and some Winchester M70s to feel, fondle, shoulder, cycle their bolts, pull their triggers, and look at them for their aesthetics too. PICK THE BEST ONE THAT YOU LIKE IN MOST OR ALL of the depts I`ve mentioned. Either rifle will give you a lifetime of dependable, reliable and rugged service.

I`ve got two M77 Rugers myself, one a Mk2 carbine and the other a Hawkeye Alaskan. The original MK2 trigger assembly (pre `07) I replaced. The Alaskan Hawkeye from the box needed absolutely nothing! No problems with either one, nor with their accuracy. AND I guarantee ya that either rifle can go anywhere, in any condition, and get `er done.

Now see! Bigsqueeze has gone and tried to add reason to the thread. What is he thinking?

.............OCC!.....I`ll take that as a compliment! I do add some reason once in a while!! Too much analysis and hair splitting floatin around here between an M70 and the M77!!!

To the OP!......................GET BOTH!

There's a reason when you head down to Reno for the Custom Gunmaker's Guild Show that you don't see Ruger 77's scattered about much, nor do you see Remingtons for that matter; that is unless Larry Potterfield happens to donate a couple.....(grin).

Castings in many methods have their place and allow someone to manufacture parts that would otherwise be nearly impossible or at the very least, cost-prohibitive to do otherwise, but by no means are they an improvement over something that has been forged and machined.

Castings, whether it be die cast, lost wax, MIM, or injected molded castings will all have varying degrees of porosity. Ruger isn't immune to this anymore than Boeing and the quality of the end product is only as good as the final inspection system that is in place.

Rugers are a pretty good rifle for the price, but they aren't in the same league as a well constructed Model 70, regardless of how well a person might like that to be. Are they able to be functional, pleasing to the eye and accurate? Yep, and to most, that's good enough. They're also plenty strong too, but so is an anvil.

I will say that from what I've seen of the Hawkeye, they're doing a better job than in years past, but that's not saying much.


As far as the term "billet", it nearly makes me want to puke to see how way overused it has become in recent years by the marketing gurus.
It's nothing more than the shape that the raw material was poured into in the inital castings process. That "billet" is then later heated again to red hot and extruded into barstock of various sizes and shapes. Once that happens, it's really not billet anymore, but rather barstock, which is what 99.9% of all manufacturers are really machining their parts from. That goes for Aluminum as well.
From what I can tell, just about every manufacturer out their thinks that if they're machining something from square or rectangular barstock, it's immediately billet. Well, yeah, kinda, but they could have just said solid barstock, whether it be round, square, hex, or otherwise and accomplished the same thing. Some marketing pencil pusher somewhere decided that they could sell more small block Chevy parts if they coined the term "billet" and perhaps they were right, but it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Thank You!

I forgot to add a smiley face. Just funnin' ya!

Aw, shucks. You guys convinced me. A billet is any hunk of metal, even wood. And M70s are the BESTEST EVER!!

You guys take this stuff waaay to serious... my comments were mostly in jest to those who love the M70, the rest were just mean spirited.

But here's a definition of billet, originally French-Fu, possibly Celtic, probably from back when lost wax casting was cutting edge schitt.... taking the known world by storm and replacing cold forging. On top of that, who knew it was a "Vulgar Latin" synonym for your junk? (A short, thick piece of wood... LOL)

bil�let 2
(blt)
n.
1. A short, thick piece of wood, especially one used as firewood.
2. One of a series of regularly spaced, log-shaped segments used horizontally as ornamentation in the moldings of Norman architecture.
3. A small, usually rectangular bar of iron or steel in an intermediate stage of manufacture.
[Middle English, from Old French billette, diminutive of bille, log, from Vulgar Latin *bilia, possibly of Celtic origin.]

Had a HB .308 77 that I loved, very accurate.

Had a #1 in 25-06 that would not stay on a 10 in paper plate at 100, tried for 2 years to get Ruger to fix it, tried countless loads with no luck. Great looking riflel, but only accurate rifles are interesting.

This is a easy choice for me between Ruger and Winchester bolt actions.
Does Winchester make a left handed model 70?
If not then I have to go with Ruger,and that suits me fine as I actually like them quite a bit.
The Winchester M70 sure is pretty though.
Eric

I've got both and I prefer the Winchester 70. My 7mm Mag Stainless Featherweight is a Classic from 1995, the second year that they re-introduced the Classic action. My .270 Sporter and .375 Safari Express are both last year of production New Haven rifles. Currently my 2 M77's are late production stainless/synthetic 77MkII's in .308 and .30-06 just before they made the switch to the Hawkeye series and voth have the newer LC6 trigger.

The Model 70's action by far is smoother than the 77's. The accuracy of my Model 70's out of the box is better than the Rugers. While the factory setting on the Model 70 triggers was heavy from the factory, they were easily adjusted by me. Their triggers have a crisper pull than the Rugers as well.

The Rugers are good rifles, I just feel that the Model 70 is more refined. The only real complaint I have on my Rugers is that my .308 really behaves more like a push feed than a controlled round feed action. The extractor does not grab the case rim and it is possible to double feed the rifle.

I'd take the new Winchester. Rugers are just too ugly

Comparing a "well made" M 70 to a Ruger Hawkeye my observations are the M 70 is smoother, heavier, the trigger is adjustable, and more expensive. I say "well made" since my M 70 stainless classic falls a bit short. I have a Ruger MKII stainless. It's not as smooth, lighter, it needed a trigger job (which was done), and cost less.

If you want a tool get the Ruger. IMHO they are tougher.

If you are willing to spend the money for a M 70 Super Grade go for it. It will give you pride in ownership.

This went a bit askewed didn't it.
Anyway, Thank you all for your help.
I realize the Hawkeye is a bit rougher, but that would not deter me at all from buying one.
Pride of ownership will be a factor, but accuracy and durability are 1 and 1A.
It just frustrates me to no end to not know the bbl length on the 30-06 M70!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you all again, I'll let you know by thurs, thats my birthday and my wife gave me the ok. Lame I know. Terry
Last thing, I'll call around and see who has either in stock to try and compare the 2, but that will be easier said than done.