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Ya, but most of them do. There is another form of incorporation that goes all the way back, I mean hundreds of years that is a personal incorporation that is specifically for church and church leaders. The technical name escapes me but no church today uses that type of personal incorporation especially with the 501(C)3 tax status. The reason is that churches would have to pay taxes. I find it interesting that churches want to escape taxes but have no problem receiving tax benefits.

Pigeon holing is so easy for you. You think guys like TRH and Barak use a bible filter when they talk politics here? Given the state of Christianity, the average Chrsitian couldn't tell you one verse of the Bible let alone base their entire moral compass on it.

OK guys, I am a Christian, never made a secrete out of it but I doubt you will find a post anywhere were where I tried to cram my beliefs down anyone's throats. I am a christian but I pay my taxes and do not pay or attend a tax exempt church.

I am for small government. I have paid SS for all my working life but I doubt I will get back what I have paid. This spend free government will find other uses for my money. I served 24 years in the service of this country and is slightly disabled because of it but I will get no pension from it. Medicare will me dead by the time I get to 65 and I will be fined every year because I chose to be financially responsible and pay my doctor cash instead of pay an insurance company who want to screw me out of my money without giving me anything in return.

Your arguments do not hole water with me. I would be thrilled to have a small government who is run my the Constitution. I would give all I am owed by this government, hell I already have.

Mac, TRH and Barak are two of the most capable debaters on here. I have indeed see TRH run his otherwise impeccable logic through the Christian filter. I can't remember Barak doing that.

But that misses the point. How would you feel if a fundie Muslim was elected to high office and acted accordingly? Or, if you went to court to sue a Muslim, and when you got there, there were sections of the Koran displayed on the walls?

I'll tell you how you'd feel. You'd be pissed that the Constitutional seperation of church and state was being violated.

That's how Tim and I, and many others, feel when Christians get too overt about it. Like Huckabee wanting to re-write the Constitution to better match the Bible. EXCUSE ME?! And he isn't kidding, either. I'm supposed to vote for the guy?

I want Christians to do whatever they want to do that makes them happy. I just don't want it to be part of "the government". That means employees of the government too- I don't want to be proslytized by post office workers, I don't want fundie teachers in the schools offering up harebrained explanations of how the world is 6000 years old, and I don't want judges working in buildings with ANY religion put in a position of favor!

Just where in the Constitution is that?

BTW I would expect a muslim to uphold the Constitution and the laws of this country just as I expect a Christian or a Jew or a Buddhist to do the same. I have served in a jury as the foreman and found a Cristian guilty because he was guilty under the law and his religious beliefs or lack of them had nothing to do with anything. Why would someone who believed in the deity of a horseshoe nail be and better or worse in making legal decisions than you or me. You are tallking apples and oranges here.

Scott F - First amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

US Constitution

I am having a hard time with making that into what some are calling a separation of church and state. To me that means there will be no law stating we must go or not go to a church, be part of any religion or be prohibited form following any religion buy our government. That does not mean the government is prohibited from any moral action or recognizing any form or religion. I am not a criminal because I choose to have or not to have a belief in a form or religion.

It's quite clear to me, it means no laws should be made "respecting an establishment of religion", this has nothing to do with mandate about going to church, it is much broader and more encompassing than that.

Our founding fathers had a healthy fear of the Puritans taking over the government and forcing their views through legislation on everyone else.

Very good post, Scott.

I wish I had your way with words...

That is the way I read it. However, it is quoted by many to mean a lot more.

Scott,

I have no doubt that you were are a good man and a fine juror.

When you look at what government is, at it's very core (a monopoly on the use of force), it should be clear that for a free country, that needs to be completely free of religious bias.

Putting the Commandments on a courthouse wall is as clear a signal as there could possibly be that "this institution is biased towards Christianity!". I mean, look at the Commandments themselves. A courthouse is a place of high authority for the State; it can decide to KILL you in a courthouse! And yet Christians don't see a problem with putting "Thou shall have no other Gods before me!" on the courthouse wall?! Crazy.

The commandments:

You shall have no other gods before Me.

You shall not make yourself any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy to thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shall thou labor, and do all your work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Honor your father and your mother: that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God gives you.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor's house, you shall not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

Of course you don't..........................

Why would a DEVIL like you want anything like that?

Lacking any religious restraint, you and your kind would be free to kill all the innocent babies you want, have queers, goats, dogs etc. marrying each other at will and be able to create a Sodom and Gomorrah like society completely devoid of any moral or ethical standards.

You are such a disgusting piece of Maser-like human waste, I simply can't understand why others here tolerate you.

Ugh..........

... it also gives the impression that it's the COURT ITSELF saying, for instance, that thou shalt not make graven images.

Screw that. I'll make graven images if I want to. As well as coveting my neighbor's ass (as long as she's HOT <grin>).

Like I said...............Maser-like human waste!!

The schools are another prime example.

Kids have no choice but to be there (most of them, anyway). They are being taught by government employees. ANY favoring of ANY religion is just plain going to seem, to the kids, as if the State itself is favoring or even pressing them towards that religion.

This is all fine and dandy for you Christians since you are basically in charge of the damn country, but try for a moment to visualize your FURY if your kid came home every day from school, having been compelled to (say) pledge allegiance to a flag under Allah.

Look up how the word "respect" is defined, so yes it does mean much more. It does mean that government is prohibited from making laws giving deference, admiration, honor, or esteem to "an establishment of religion." This includes Christianity or any other religion out there, it seems quite clear to me.

respect - free dictionary on line

respect
1. an attitude of deference, admiration, or esteem; regard
2. the state of being honoured or esteemed
3. a detail, point, or characteristic; particular he differs in some respects from his son
4. reference or relation (esp in the phrases in respect of, with respect to)
5. polite or kind regard; consideration respect for people's feelings
6. (often plural) an expression of esteem or regard (esp in the phrase pay one's respects)

I am out of this one.

Jeff,
I think a guy could make a pretty good case that most of the law in use in the Western world today is based on The 10 Commandments.
Besides, what is wrong with 'thou shalt not steal', 'thou shalt not bear false witness','thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife', etc.?

OK, the graven image and no work on the Sabbath may be somewhat iffy in this day and age, but for the rest, I think it is a pretty darn good 'code', if you will.

Let me ask you,
What would your guideline for societal norms of behavior entail?

It wouldn't be the ten commandment if you only posted half of them.

Here's me, standing there watching Nemesis trying to have a "debate".

Keep humpin' it, Nemesis! You'll get there eventually.