|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,090 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,090 Likes: 2 |
Murder is a moral opinion, killing is a natural fact. Nature creates an egg or seed to be fertilized, it either is or isn't fertilized and the host is constantly createing eggs/seeds until a time of maturity that it no longer can, simple fact.
Once a egg/seed has been fertilized it is no longer just a possibility of a seperate entity, it is a reality. Whether in a womb or in the soil. There are many natural ways for the entity to perish from 1 second after fertilization to centuries later, it's the miracle of life. It's not up to our opinion whether it is real, it has a specific future no matter how short or long.
Letting nature take it's course is not pro choice, it's natural.
The PRO in pro choice as used in conversation is a substitute for ABORTION, doesn't mean you decided to have a baby, that's NO choice (natural). Choosing to consciously abort that process is PRO ABORTION.
Now, killing or relying on the demise of other life forms is necessary for every other life form in nature for nutrients, fact. We humans have to be killers of life even to sustain as vegetarians. We justify homocide in wars and criminal punishment, we make moral decisions on those opinions all the time.
Conscious aborting a fertilized egg at any point is homocide, it's not an opinion, it's fact. Whether it is justifiable is the moral question and opinion. Can't sugar coat it and say it didn't count as a real homocide because of a time limit.
I'm a naturalist, I also understand killing is a part of our natural and moral life. There's a million ways to justify homocide and only one way to allow nature to take it's course.
Fact
Kent
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,859 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,859 Likes: 1 |
Very good post - spot on.
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,246 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,246 Likes: 2 |
Murder is a moral opinion, killing is a natural fact. Nature creates an egg or seed to be fertilized, it either is or isn't fertilized and the host is constantly createing eggs/seeds until a time of maturity that it no longer can, simple fact.
Once a egg/seed has been fertilized it is no longer just a possibility of a seperate entity, it is a reality. Whether in a womb or in the soil. There are many natural ways for the entity to perish from 1 second after fertilization to centuries later, it's the miracle of life. It's not up to our opinion whether it is real, it has a specific future no matter how short or long.
Letting nature take it's course is not pro choice, it's natural.
The PRO in pro choice as used in conversation is a substitute for ABORTION, doesn't mean you decided to have a baby, that's NO choice (natural). Choosing to consciously abort that process is PRO ABORTION.
Now, killing or relying on the demise of other life forms is necessary for every other life form in nature for nutrients, fact. We humans have to be killers of life even to sustain as vegetarians. We justify homocide in wars and criminal punishment, we make moral decisions on those opinions all the time.
Conscious aborting a fertilized egg at any point is homocide, it's not an opinion, it's fact. Whether it is justifiable is the moral question and opinion. Can't sugar coat it and say it didn't count as a real homocide because of a time limit.
I'm a naturalist, I also understand killing is a part of our natural and moral life. There's a million ways to justify homocide and only one way to allow nature to take it's course.
Fact
Kent
Nicely said. That being said, is it your belief that all women and the men who participated in the decision to have abortions or take the "morning after pill" deserve to be in prison or perhaps Death Row with others who have committed homocide?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,670 Likes: 1 |
don't know why, maybe cause I just had a discussion with the Manager of Compeaus yesterday and Palin came up, but decided to look in on this thread.
started bout page 20
great discussion gents, well reasoned and articulated positions, hardly any animosity from what I saw.
you're conducting yourselves like men that most anyone of decent character would enjoy associating.
I commend you all
Last edited by 1akhunter; 01/17/10.
"This ain't dress rehearsal....it's the life you get to live, make it a good one."
TEAMWORK = a bunch of people doing what I say
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301 |
I have no problem with today's laws on abortion. Abortion is a moral/ethical issue and a matter of the heart. You cannot legislate morals or ethics. Once you try to legislate the issue it becomes a law and is removed from a moral and ethical issue. It comes from the heart not the courts. There would be no abortion clinics is peoples hearts turned to where the thought of such an act would be so offensive that it sicken everyone.
In the same context this is not a Christian issue. There are many non Christians who are repulsed by abortion. The died in the wool pro abortionists who want babies killed hang the issue in Christians so the will have a label to place on the people they hate. By the same way there are Christians who choose abortions.
So, if you are going to hate or persecute me because I am a Christian then do so because I choose to have faith in a supreme God and His Son not for my stand, my personal set of ethics and morals on the issue of abortion.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,090 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,090 Likes: 2 |
I'm not calling it murder, it is homocide though in the literal sense. As far as being criminal, as in all justifications, it comes down to intent and provability of intent in court. As far as a next morning abortion pill there is no possible social provability of a real action so it is solely a personal moral decision by the woman. Once other's become involved as in doctors or just anyone, then it becomes a social issue and opinions of intent.
My main point is there is a lot of talk on this thread on whether abortion is really killing a human or not and trying to relate that into moral opinion instead of nature's facts.
Human fetus assisted abortion is homocide. Fact, justifiablity is opinion.
Kent
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,359 Likes: 3
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,359 Likes: 3 |
krp - where does the concept of "quickening" figure into your views? Abortion in English Law
In the thirteenth century St. Thomas Aquinas had said that life is manifested principally in two kinds of actions: knowledge and movement. It could be taken to follow that animus, soul, or life, enters the body of the unborn infant when it first moves or stirs in the womb. This became the rule of English law. "Quickening" (literally, "coming to life") was held to occur not at a fixed time after conception, but at the moment when fetal movement is first detected�an event that varies with each pregnancy, but which usually happens near midterm, around the twentieth week.
Remember why, specifically, the Bill of Rights was written...remember its purpose. It was written to limit the power of government over the individual.
There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301 |
In the thirteenth century
In the thirteenth century they thought the earth was flat.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,090 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,090 Likes: 2 |
As soon as the egg is fertilized by sperm and splits to two cells it is a seperate entity with a future no matter how long. There is a zillion natural ways for that new entity, in this case human egg + human sperm = human, to cease living. Abortion, in the sense we are discussing, is not a natural occurance, it is homocide.
Kent
Last edited by krp; 01/17/10.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965 |
In the thirteenth century
In the thirteenth century they thought the earth was flat. A lot of folks in Kansas and Nebraska still do.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,090 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,090 Likes: 2 |
In the thirteenth century
In the thirteenth century they thought the earth was flat. A lot of folks in Kansas and Nebraska still do. You been hanging with my relatives I see. Kent
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965 |
In the thirteenth century
In the thirteenth century they thought the earth was flat. A lot of folks in Kansas and Nebraska still do. You been hanging with my relatives I see. Kent Nope. Just a little tongue in cheek about the "relative" flatness of those states. Been in both many times and do enjoy them and the people there. 
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,090 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,090 Likes: 2 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301 |
In the thirteenth century
In the thirteenth century they thought the earth was flat. A lot of folks in Kansas and Nebraska still do. Got to add Nebraska to that list. 
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,359 Likes: 3
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 7,359 Likes: 3 |
As soon as the egg is fertilized by sperm and splits to two cells it is a separate entity with a future no matter how long. There is a zillion natural ways for that new entity, in this case human egg + human sperm = human, to cease living. Abortion, in the sense we are discussing, is not a natural occurrence, it is homicide.
Kent Kent, the issue I have with your definition is that birth control pills would have to be considered monthly abortions as the pill prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus and developing any further. In your view that would make millions of women currently using the pill homicidal maniacs under you view. Is that correct? If yes, should women currently using the pill be charged with homicide? Jailed? I am more inclined to consider it homicide after the quickening, not before. PS - a lot of traditional English common law regarding abortion involves the "quickening" as to whether or not a homicide has been committed or not.
Remember why, specifically, the Bill of Rights was written...remember its purpose. It was written to limit the power of government over the individual.
There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,859 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,859 Likes: 1 |
Sq - interesting viewpoint - one I hadn't considered. I'm not up on the latest pill facts but does the pill actually "abort" the fertilized egg or prevent the fertilization in the first place. I was under the impression it was the latter.
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,246 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,246 Likes: 2 |
As soon as the egg is fertilized by sperm and splits to two cells it is a seperate entity with a future no matter how long. There is a zillion natural ways for that new entity, in this case human egg + human sperm = human, to cease living. Abortion, in the sense we are discussing, is not a natural occurance, it is homocide.
Kent Well defining homicide still does not make abortion murder if in fact if you still believe this fertalized egg is yet to have grown into a child. Homicide, but not murder is your opinion?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965 |
I believe squidge is correct on how the "pill" works.
All the more reason our technological prosperity may catch up with us.
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,246 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,246 Likes: 2 |
So... when you say "until Christian leadership sees fit to change and tweak" I think of two things: A. who are you defining as the Christain leadership, B. what are they changing. I blur the line between Catholic and Christian becasue I am pretty ignorant about religion, but isn't it true that Christians/Catholics have made concessions in regards to homosexuality and woman in the priesthood? How about birth control, weren't concessions made in regards to birth control and how it is viewed by the church?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,090 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,090 Likes: 2 |
The problem with that about my statement is you are adding opinion to my factual statement of the definition of homocide. That means one human killing another. Abortion is homocide, fact. Morality of that act is opinion.
I made no moral opinion, that discussion is totally different. There are some here trying to say that whether they are even human depends on a certain time limit from fertilization and that it is unfactual.
Justifiable homocide? maybe in some cases, probably not whatever number happens daily. Even still it is homocide. If a criminal breaks in your house and you kill him, it was justifiable but still a human killing another = homocide. The courts will take a look and determine the justification, you don't get a free pass and a wave goodby as they haul the body away.
The moral issues are tough enough emotionaly without being way off track on the factual definition of the act of abortion.
Kent
|
|
|
|
|
94 members (3dtestify, 358wsm, 280Ackleyrized, 338Rules, 35, 10 invisible),
1,013
guests, and
886
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,194,091
Posts18,522,126
Members74,026
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
