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The pill aborts a fertilized egg by tricking the female body into believing that it is already pregnant. The pill changes hormone levels to match those during pregnancy which then does not allow another fertilized egg to implant and grow in the uterus. The morning after pill is a basically a one time heavy dose of the same pill that also prevents implantation of a fertilized egg into the uterus.

Fertilization normally takes place in the fallopian tubes, from their a blastocyst has to makes it's way to the uterus where it must implant if it is going to develop any further.

Abortion in English Law

WOW! Over 440 relies that byc started with Sarah Palin is a Fox. We just can�t seem to get enough of Palin Power.

Gotta love the pictures of Gov. Palin on the firing line with the Alaska National Guard. Other Governors have toured the front, but I don�t remember any firing line photos. Sarah was there with her troops, her guys-you Betcha!

I know that this thread has wandered off a bit dealing with rather or not having a Daddy named Bush can get you though flight school (I don�t think so, maybe to fly a desk but not a F106) and also about using the Bible to run the country. I don�t have to go to church anymore. I just watch Rev. Huck on Fox.

But it has really gone off the deep end with the subject of dead babies. It does tie into Palin with her talk the talk and walk the walk pro-life stand.

I will make am easy prediction. If and I think when Gov. Palin runs for POTUS in 2012, the Sarah Snipers will make abortion the number one campaign issue.

Gotta love the way Palin pisses off all those pundits who are pushing this country into dark places I don�t want to go.

Homocide is killing human on human, the true definition. Suicide is killing one's self as reference.

Here's what I googled in 30 secs off a online dictonary.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/homicide
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The killing of one human being by another human being.

Although the term homicide is sometimes used synonymously with murder, homicide is broader in scope than murder. Murder is a form of criminal homicide; other forms of homicide might not constitute criminal acts. These homicides are regarded as justified or excusable. For example, individuals may, in a necessary act of Self-Defense, kill a person who threatens them with death or serious injury, or they may be commanded or authorized by law to kill a person who is a member of an enemy force or who has committed a serious crime. Typically, the circumstances surrounding a killing determine whether it is criminal. The intent of the killer usually determines whether a criminal homicide is classified as murder or Manslaughter and at what degree.
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To have any true discussion of morality on abortion, the base must be set in biological facts and real terms.

Kent

At what point does a bundle of cells become "human"?

What are the legal precedents?

How does the law define what being human is?

The problem here Mr. Barkoff is that to defend your indefensible point you keep insisting on talking about "fertilized eggs."

Did you see the pictures of the aborted first trimester infants posted earlier on this thread or did you purposely ignore them in an effort to make your point?

In case you missed them, does this look like a "fertilized egg" to you?



"This is a picture of a tiny nine-week old child like Cheka�s son who also was nine weeks old and with all toes and fingers, nose and eyes, legs and arms, heart beating."

And there is also this:

"At nine weeks, the embryo's ballooning brain allows it to bend its body, hiccup, and react to loud sounds. At week ten, it moves its arms, "breathes" amniotic fluid in and out, opens its jaw, and stretches. Before the first trimester is over, it yawns, sucks, and swallows, as well as feels and smells."

I hope you'll agree Mr. Barkoff, that the foregoing illustration and descriptive text indicates that a nine week (first trimester) fetus is much more than just a "fertilized egg."

If you do, then perhaps we can then begin to have the honest debate about abortion that you so desperately seek.

Also, while you are pondering the subject, please keep in mind that since current law does not limit abortions to the first trimester, your point about only favoring these procedures is moot.

If you are Pro-Choice Abortion, there's no "first trimester rule"...............in other words,........................ if you are in for a penny, you are in for a pound!!!

I'm sure you will have a well reasoned response to what I have said here Mr. Barkoff, because all of this would certainly have been discussed at length as you sat around the campfire with your Pro-Choice Abortion friends.

A human egg and human sperm start a human at the first split. that was my life's start and your's also, every other human's. When it ends is up in the air for us all.

Biological laws aren't changable in the court of law, only morality.

Kent

I was looking for the legal definition of "human".

This is when basic legal human rights begin. More often than not legal human rights are granted at birth, not at the moment of conception as you state.

We have elevated the law above reason much to our detriment. It is a cruel taskmaster.

The beginning of legal rights for humans have fluctuated throughout history and is a morality issue not biological or natural. If that morality is to be debated it must first have a base starting from facts, not supposed opinion. I state biological fact of when a human starts, opinion is for philosophers searching for the meaning of life or God.

Kent

Gotta think there's a difference between getting your dog an abortion vs. stomping newborn puppies to death.

If I steal a bag of seed corn, who cares. If I steal your entire corn crop, you'd care.

If by my actions I cause your unsprouted tree seeds to fail to grow, it's a slight bummer. If I cut down your 100-year-old trees, off to court we go.

Two humans, a man and a woman, represent enormous potential for reproduction. If I kick the man in the nuts and cause him to be sterile for a month, I have not KILLED anyone. I have just prevented a potential thing from happening.

As I've said, at some point a fetus becomes viable and at that point it is, to me, a life. Before that it is a potential life.

The human body will spontaneously abort "young" fetuses if they are defective and/or if the female is under too much stress. This is as it should be. As cognitive beings, we posess the ability to factor in stressors beyond simple nutrition or whatever and make reproductive decisions accordingly. This is a good thing. It's not like we are going extinct and need more people!!

Finally, if it was MEN who bore the brunt of pregnancy, abortion would be free and come with a case of free beer!

On many levels, for humans to have reproductive freedom is a good thing. So some early fetuses get aborted. Who cares. We'll make more.

All that was potential until the sperm hit the egg and it split. Once that happened you won't be preventing an action, you'll be killing a unique existance.

Kent

It's still just potential until it isn't, which occurs at viability.

Biologically incorrect, it's viable from the split until death, whenever, however that happens, could be 1 sec or 100 yrs.

If there is a biological model showing a definate transition from a mass of cells started by conception and a morphing into a human, I'd like to see it. Otherwise it's a steady progression from split to death uninterupted.

Kent

I won't commit? I have not been asked on this thread, when asked in the past, I have answered.

Ideally a women who believes she might be pregnant should be checked out as soon as possible. If found to be pregnant she should make her choice within the first weeks. As an absolute maximum I would like to see abortion illegal after the first trimester.

Hey Mr. Barkoff,

Why don't you take a shot at responding to my last post........huh?

Or are you just being selective regarding what you are willing to discuss here?

I may have missed the photos you are referencing, as I chimed in fairly late to this thread, but the photos I recall RickyD posting did not appear to be first trimester, and they had no sources to state at what stage they were aborted. (You may be referring to other pictures posted previously, if so, I apologize).

However, I think we can all agree that a great deal of change occurs in the first trimester of a pregnancy. At nine weeks, it is pretty clear that what we are discussing is not a fertilized egg at all. I think the very gray area is within the first few weeks of pregnancy, and the question remains at what point does it become a fetus and not simply a fertilized egg? I'd imagine krp will keep chiming the same thing (no offense) that as soon as the egg is fertilized it is biologically human, and that is fine, though many will have certain issues with that I think.

From using a little Google-fu, the second week after conception the blastocyst embeds itself into the uterine wall. About the third week after conception, "The developing embryo has three layers. In the top layer (ectoderm), the neural tube will form which will further develop into the nervous system (brain, spinal cord, skin and hair). In the middle layer (mesoderm), the heart and circulatory system, bones, muscles, kidneys and reproductive organs will develop - eventually. At this stage, however, the heart and primitive circulatory system will rapidly form. In fact, the circulatory system is the first organ system to function. In the inner layer (endoderm), a simple tube will develop into the intestines, liver, pancreas and bladder."

In my opinion, this seems to be about the time where you most definitely could draw a clear cut line as to it being more than just an egg. The following week the heart begins to beat, which is clearly not an egg at that point.

So, I guess the question that is presented now, would be is it more than just an egg in the first two weeks after conception? Biologically, that would be somewhat debatable, I think.

In a way, we are dancing around the point(s).

Point one: the "soul" does not exist, at least not in any sense that my dog Lucy doesn't have one. Disagree? Prove it.

Point two: God does not exist, at least in the sense that a moral arbiter is totting up debits and credits on our personal moral accounts. Disagree? Prove it.

Point three: to not allow women to have control of their bodies is uncivilized. Men control women via reproduction. Want proof? Google up a chart of what countries do and don't allow abortion. Then tell me why we should be like Iran.

Point four: lacking a soul and a God, what we are left with is a simple biological termination of an unwanted event. But the ramifications for NOT terminating it can be truly devastating, particularly for women.

Men control women through reproduction. Abortion allows women more equal footing. It gives them the Choice.

I support that choice. Always have, always will. It's freedom, and that's American. And to turn the classic retort around- if you don't like it, move somewhere where your beliefs prevail!

Like Iran.

Explain.

I won't be moving anywhere. Figured out how to use a climbing tree stand yet tool?