Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only M70 Classic Safari Express v. Classic Super Express

What, if any, are the fundamental differences between the two?

Your best bet is to "Google" the Mod. 70 and read up on it. For the most part it is divided into the push feed and controlled round feed rifles,the pre-64 and post 64 rifles and the pre World War 11 rifles. The pre-64 rifles probably had better barrels as a rule and the post 64 series is said to have straighter actions due to the heat treating process. The pre-64 rifles had a one piece bolt handle and the post 64 rifles vents escaping gases better. The new FN Mod. 70's look like good rifles. Sadly they replaced what may have been the best and most rugged and reliable hunting trigger ever put on a rifle. With that trigger and the bolt which can be field stripped with out tools you have a rifle that could fall in the mud and be washed off in a creek. To the purist the pre 64 Mod. 70 is the Holy Grail. There are some other things on the "Classic" series such as magazine springs and extractors that I like replacing with spring steel ones. A small book can be written on Mod. 70's. I like them and have both pre and post 64 Mod. 70 rifles. They are known as the "Riflemen's Rifle" for a reason.

Ak1, thanks for the info. I'm aware of the pre vs post-64 differences in general, but was looking more specifically for the differences between the post-64 Classics - both of which are 'big bores' and somewhat 'fallbacks' to the pre-64, in that at they are CRF versions.

The Super had a monte carlo stock, the Safari had a classic straight stock.

The Super had a fairly crappy, IMO, fold down rear sight, the Safari had a decent, from what I remember express rear.

The Super had a barrel "lug" front swivel, the Safari had a barrel band.

Seems the Super usually had a little better wood than the Safari, but had a darker finish.

Super had a Supergrade style rear swivel, I think the Safari had a standard swivel post.

Super had a hard rubber Win. red pad, the Safari had a black Decelerator, big plus.

I have a Super, which has been modified extensively. Mine is a 375. I'd like to have a Safari in 458, punched out to Lott. I don't think they ever made the Super in 416, but could be wrong. The Super was made in pushfeed actions before the birth of the Classic action.

I think that pretty well covers it. Either is a great rifle. I'd prefer a Safari, but I bought mine for a song. They're a bit heavy, especially for a 375, but handle nicely. The stock is nice and slim, but not overly so. Seems maybe the Safari stock had a large butt area that might help spread recoil a little better, but not sure on that.

Hope that helps,

David Walker

Whichever one you choose have it worked over very carefully for 110% feeding, no excuses...that is the only diffence you need on a DG rifle if you intend to hunt DG with it..either will be fine if you do this otherwise neither will do.

I would like more specifics on the recommended improvements for the Safari.

Extractor replaced, polished the front for single feed. Replaced glue bedding. Honed trigger. What else?

What about the 2 piece bolt, pin, silver soldier or TIG? Replacement Magazine Box Spring, who makes these? Is it worth hollowing out the forend for lighter weight and better balance?
Anything else? I am considering an oil finish redo as I have probably already negated any collectors value.

Tejano,

Full length bedding, tank to forend is what I like, with a relief at the tang to help prevent splitting. Didn't do anything to my bolt. Trigger is at a crisp 3.25 lbs. I ended up putting a Remington Mag. length magazine spring in mine, it took a little mod. to fit the floorplate, in order to hold 4 down in 375. The factory spring had a "kink" in it that made it only hold 3. But I haven't played with that enough yet to say it's "proven". That's really about all I'd do. I replaced sights etc..., but mostly for aesthetics.

DW

Tejano,

For the most part, the Safari Express is a pretty good rifle out of the box IMO. However, the point Ray was making (I think) is that for DG hunting, you want that thing 100% reliable as far as feeding, extraction, operation, etc. goes. That means shooting it enough in real world hunting conditions to make sure you don't have any issues. You've replaced the extractor and polished the feed ramp, bedded it and have the trigger set. Now you just have to make sure that it operates every time, which means you must shoot it extensively.

As far as the bolt goes, there are some people who believe welding the bolt handle is necessary and then there are others who see this as needless. From what I've seen described over the years, bolt separation on Post 64 rifles is very uncommon, but not unheard of. So if you're a belt and suspenders kind of guy, go ahead. I personally have never worried about it and never had a problem. I think our resident M70 gunsmithing expert, Redneck, has said previously that he doesn't think this is necessary. Brian Pierce, writer for Wolfe Publishing, has said he thinks it ought to be done based on him experiencing this problem.

Other things to consider is to make sure the tang is bedded properly since the Safari can develop cracks in this area after extensive firing from a large cartridge. The Safaris I have seen and inspected, including my two, have had the cross-bolts fitted very well but you might check to make sure those are good and not loose. If you think you might be using the open sights, then you might think about those and consider whether the factory ones meet your requirements. That is the one aspect of the Safaris that I think are lacking, to some degree. My .375 H&H is fitted with a peep that installs on the scope base dovetail and it works well with the original bead front. I'm not sure what cartridge your rifle is chambered in, but I wouldn't mess with hollowing the forend out since I think the Safaris are about the right weight and balance to start with. However, if it doesn't balance right for you or feels awkward, then by all means, do something about it to make it fit well so you can be on target instantly without any thought or fiddling around.

I hope this helps.
Test

Thanks for the very good advice.

Instead of tweaking the rifle I need to be out shooting it. Mine is a 375 H&H and a bit much for hogs but I will ring it out on whatever opportunities are available.

I figure the best way to hone an action is to cart it around in a dusty/sandy environment in an open air vehicle and then shoot a couple of hundred rounds through it for function testing. This will be a pleasure and a good way to bide my time until I can go back to Africa.

Thanks again.

It was John Wayne who said, "Never trust a man who won't trust his own belt".

Henry Fonda-Once upon a time in the West- "Never trust a man who wears suspenders and a belt. The man can't even trust his own pants." 1968

If you think it needs it....do it.

Kirk Douglas....Ace in the Hole..." I've done a lot of lying in my time. I've lied to men who wear belts. I've lied to men who wear suspenders. But I'd never be so stupid as to lie to a man who wears both belt and suspenders."

Belt and suspenders it is on the bolt handle.

I guess TIG would be the ultimate but are there other options?

Just curious if anyone makes a one piece aftermarket bolt?

Mines a Lefty so probably not, but would be useful for cartridge conversions as well.

I think the Post 64s for a long time had the bolt handle on a spline and then moved onto being pressed onto a knurled surface.

D'Arcy Echols pins the bolts somehow, and also solders too I believe. Maybe check on the web.

Cheers, Chris

The bolt on an Echols rifle has a .093" hardened steel dowel pin fitted and soldered through the bolt handle ring and bolt body thus locking the two together. The post-64 M-70 handles can and have come off, mostly due to improper brazing or poor fit from Winchester.

Brian

Thanks Brian. Most disconcerting to have the bolt come apart I'd imagine.

Chris

New poster

I have a super classic express in 458 win. mag with a synthetic stock, looking to restock with wood. Will the super classic express work in a safari express stock. I can find safari express stocks but not super classic express stocks. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Whippoorwill,
I would tend to think they would since I don't think Winchester changed the actions at all. If they did, it would be very slight. If I were you, I would buy one and check it out. If it is too different to be worth the hassle of fitting, you could always resell the stock. However, I'd bet it would work without any issues at all. I would imagine that your rifle has a barrel mounted recoil lug, right? Same for the Safari Express rifles. The only thing I can even think of that might be different between these two models might be the location of this lug and you could probably modify the stock to fit if that was the case. Also, does the classic express have a barrel mounted sling stud? The Safari Express rifles do. Therefore, if your rifle doesn't have one, you'll be minus a front sling stud with the Safari Express stock so would have to fit one to the barrel or put one in the new stock.

Welcome to the fire, by the way.
Test

They are interchangeable. I haev done the reverse.

JW

That part should be OK. Here is a picture of new Safari and when open click the litte picture lower down showing barreled action and stock. You will see in the stock a section of wood removed in front of where the barrel lug goes. That is from early models, in fact at least back to 1970. The barrel lug had a forward section and so they are still cutting the stock the same.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/imagepreview.asp?mid=535116#center

Maybe one thing to check is the later models had the one piece floor plate. If I had to guess I don't think that would be a problem.

Good info, Mike. Those are some nice pictures that I didn't know existed. I didn't think about the one-piece floor plate, so you're right, that could be another issue, but not insurmountable.

Funny, but I don't recall that other section of wood removed in front of the barrel lug on mine, but then again, it's been so long since I've paid any attention to that area of the stock that I just might have missed and dismissed it. By the way, you gotta love that nice hot-melt "bedding" material they show in their pictures! HA!

Test

The lug use to have an extension and the lug also protruded out to the sides. In other words if you bedded it epoxy would finish between the lug and the barrel.

That lug with its position and the way Winchester attached it has always been a negative and for real consistent grouping the Stainless were better because they did not have them.

The Wby system is better as it is only about an inch out from the barrel.

The M70s and especially in 375 don't need the lug. I have owned heap of M70s in 375 and 458 but especially 375 and I use to have the lug drilled and tapped and a screw in them, bedded and the barrel free floating either side.

If they are bedded (and no take down screw) and floated either side they are not consistent as the lug is too far from the action screw. As they come from the factory they can work quite well because of forend tip pressure and so the barrel can't whip around and change the position of the barrel lug.

But the one peice floor plate might be a problem. A fellow who will know posts as Headache and was a Winchester engineer who then went to Kimber. He is/was on this forum and also AR.

For anyone buying a used 375 Headache has the serial numbes of a group with feeding problems. I had two of them and one was a one piece floor plate walnut and the other a stainless. They foul up on the second cartridge. You can tell by looking at the rifle if it is a problem model as the magazine box is narrowed in by a sort crimping. In other words, the back plate of the box is the same and the sides are pushed. From memory Headache ( I forget his name but it is a Polish type of name) told me it was because of an effort by Wicnhester to get the 375 and 416 Remington (when loaded with blunt round nose) to feed from the same magazine setup.

Darn another belt & suspenders issue.

Mine has the stepped magazine. I polished the lips and the rifle also took a trip through the New Haven Custom shop for accurizing. I thought it was a plus for soft nosed bullet protection. Now I am wondering if I should replace it and if so with what? The factory box is pretty chintzy looking. Are there any other options other than Sunny Hill? Beautiful but pricey.

It it is OK I would leave it.

The ones that don't work are way out. The bullet hits the side of the chamber, even with spitzers.

I sometimes think where a 338 woukld be better than a 375 is it less demanding. A 338 in a Howa with no sights is fine

Brownell's sells a Wyatts Outddoor full length Model 70 Magazine box for $42.50 so itis worth a try at that price. SKU is 100-000-568.

JW

I've got a Safari Express in .416 Rem and another in .375 H&H. The .416 I bought new and bedded myself. I bedded the front recoil lug just like the rear one, so that it would bear on the rear facing surface, but not on the sides, front or bottom. I also free floated it. It shoots as accurately as I can hold it, pretty much. 1" 3 shot groups at 100 yards are typical for the loads it likes best. Northfork FP solids are the most accurate bullets I've ever used in it and will give less than 1" most always. So...I've never experienced what I would call accuracy issues. The .375 I picked up used and I haven't shot it as much. However, with Rem. factory 270 gr. SP, it will shoot around 1-1.5". However, it was bedded by a real gunsmith and I'm not real certain exactly how he did it.

I've also got a Stainless/synthetic .375 without the barrel lug, as Mike says. It also is very accurate, especially with 300gr. Swift A-frame handloads. I haven't done anything to it. It is just as it left the factory. I can't remember off-hand whether it came free floated from the factory or not. Most likely not since most of the synthetic models were not.

I've never had any issues with any of them feeding. Even the .416 with the FP solids didn't have a problem.

Yeah, Mike, I often debate using the .338 over the .375 since I don't think the .375 gains you a whole lot. However, there just is something about the ol' .375 that feels right when you're carrying it. I've shot a lot of elk and a few other animals with the .338 and I love my .416, so unfortunately, the .375 usually stays home.

Test

Test,

I have had them where they were good but plenty of then not so good. Bug changes in point of impact with different loads, fussy with loads. But the stainless were all good. In my experience the main offenders will come from the PF series of rifles. I think in general the factory barrels and not just Winchester got better from maybe mid 1990s or so. But tying down the front lug usually gets an offender going OK.

Thank you all for the great info, my gun I found out came from the win. custom shop in 458 win. mag rechambered to 458 lott, the odd thing about it is that it has a 20 inch barrel or 22 inches including the muzzle brake. It doesn't have a barrel band but a sling attachment under the barrel. It has a one piece floor plate. It has the G301xxx serial number, according to what I could find on the internet it was made some time between 1994-1998, because in 1999 they switched to the safari express.

Mike - I'm having a very similar feeding issue with mine that for the life of me I cannot figure out. happens on the second round when I load three into the magazine.