Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Shotgun slugs vs bears

you're a big boy so you can do what you want, but this is silly talk, IMO.



No doubt in my mind that a large bore rifle is the fire arm of choice, but that wasn't the OP's question.

[quote=Rman]I think thats the guy. Well done. Its been a long time since I read any of his stuff. I did come across this as well.

Good info from the US Forest Service


R. [/quot

He's more'n likely retired, and laying low,....

unless a Bear ate im'

GTC

One must than assume that it's OK to feel like an idiot, while being eaten, and rendered into Bear Manure,...?

I hope you;ll forgive me for pointing this out,.....B.C. Bears are not impressed by South Side Chicago Gear.

They EAT your horses, and cattle.

GTC

It looks like those were Foster-type slugs. Brennekes are a whole different animal.

For anyone to suggest that a 2 ounce slug from my 10 bore BPS will not deter a bear is just funny. In a 12 bore the 1&3/8 Brennekes will kill anything in NA that walks.

"Good" info from the Forest Circus? I am LMAO. I live with them. They are refusing to log so the pine bark beetles will kill the whole west, they can't keep the trails clear, they have a bunch of EEOC mandated 90 pound females running around in pickups who could no more build a stone wall or handle a two man crosscut than Nancy Pelosi. It is obsolete and should be abolished (along with the BLM) and the land returned to the states.

We need back the ALL MALE CCC, run by the military to get the dropouts out of the cities, under a firm hand and contributing to something besides the drug trade. It was one of few of the New Deal programs that actually worked and was done FAST.

When the Taliban takes over...well you figure it out.

I have read all the suggestions from these people, and it is quite evident most have never seen a grizzly in the wild let alone shot one. I have seen them in Alaska but never shot one, and never would, they can run 40 Mph. a human in top running condition can do about 20 Mph on a smooth track.
the bear can do his top speed in the forest. I don't have a clue what bullet would be best for bear but I think a hard bullet that would not break up on tough hide,muscle and bone would be needed. they are not thin skinned like a deer where about any bullet will do. so any bullet for African dangerous game should do. forget about soft lead as it will break up MOST of the time and you will be bear food.

What about 12 ga. with sabot and Revolver bullets.I think I have seen them with 250 gr Hornadys and a Barnes bullet,not sure on weight.

Sabots generally don't work well in smooth bore barrels. The ones I've seen tended to keyhole even at very close range. Also, I don't there's any advantage going to a lighter bullet, though a heavy solid copper bullet might be interesting.
I realize there's lots of factors to consider in a bear defence gun, and alot of that has to do with where you are and what your doing. The places where I am likely to encounter bears are Alberta and maybe B.C. The bears here are not going to be as large and heavy as Alaskan bears, at least not usually. It's also unlikely I'll ever need to use the gun, but of course it's important to have one when you need it. Something else to consider for me was the fact that I'll be camping and sleeping in a tent a fair bit, so I need something that can be used in those circumstances. The 12.5 barrel will be considerably more handy than even a 20" carbine,which is my only other choice.
I don't by any means think a 12 gauge is the best possible bear defense gun, but for my specific situation I think this gun is close to ideal. First, at $300, I can afford it. Second, it's not a pretty gun to start with so I don't mind dragging it through the bush,which means it's more likely to be with me when I need it.Third, being so short, it'll fit down inside my pack for when I'm in area's where I don't want to broadcast the fact that I have a gun. Also, the guns is of a proven reliable design so I feel I can count on it. My other choice, a .444 lever action, has jammed on me in the past in a hunting situation. It happened only once, and I believe I know what the problem is but it still makes me uncomfortable. Lastly, I believe the 12 gauge,at true self defense ranges, is adequate with the proper ammunition. From what I've read so far, that means at least a Brenneke slug. I think there are better slugs out there, but not easily available,especially to me in Canada. Still, I'm going to try to get some and do a bit of testing.

Stick to your gun, xxclaro. A 12.5-in Remington 870 (hope that is what you're talking about) loaded with five Brennekes can save your bacon if set up right and run correctly.

You didn't say how your shorty would be stocked. I recommend against a pistol grip only or one of the AR-type folders.

Pistol grip only shotguns look badass but are hard with which to HIT something repeatedly.

Get the tiny little Hogue stock designed for kids and it will be within a half in. or less as short as a collapsed AR style. And it won't smack you in the chops when your\ are trying to run it fast.

At defensive ranges, a short barreled shotgun (any defense SG)should have an XS Big Dot Tritium bead JB Welded over the standard bead. Forget ghost rings, you are building a "get off me" snubnosed fighting shotgun.

Don't worry about the minor velocity loss; matter of fact, some would think you might achieve better penetration with a Brenneke at a slightly slower velocity. A hardcast 240 grain .44 at 1,000 fps will usually punch as deep as a .375 softpoint.

I respect Mr. Atkinson's experience, but my experience seeing buckshot deployed in an LE environment tells me buckshot is a weak sister...if it can't penetrate the door of a car how's it gonna bust into a grizzly bear's vitals? They are as soft or softer (depending upon the load) as a Foster slug.

I've shot a crippled whitetail buck with a 3-in. 000 Buck load, dropped it and watched it get right back up again...with steam issuing through multiple holes in the thoracic cavity. Would soil myself if that had been a pitbull, let alone a grizzly.

While I believe our low recoil Foster slugs will work just fine on unarmored humanoids, I would never purposefully engage a grizzly or brown bear with Fosters unless nothing else was available

Shoot your shotgun a lot. I've shot wobble trap several times with my 14-in. work 870, starting with the weapon at low ready rather than shouldered. Make reactively killing with it second nature.

When you are in an area where a bear may prove problematic have it in your hands and secured with a single point sling. In a pack or over slung your shoulder is way too far behind the power curve if you think someone or something might try to kill you.

Finally, if you can afford it, take a pump shotgun operator course from Rob Haught (Google videos for him) He can teach you how to run an 870 fast as a Benelli semi.

It's awesome you folks can have short barreled rifles and shotguns up there, despite the draconian laws on handguns and semis. I am jealous.

If you could cut your Marlin .444 down to 12.5 in and cure it's perceived feeding problem that might be another good choice; especially with some HC 300 grainers in the tube.

P.S. All I've ever killed with a Brenneke, a Black Magic I believe, was a good sized whitetail buck about 10-12 years ago. Used a bead sighted 14-in. 870 and punched him low though both shoulders at 32 yards. He died in two steps with blood gushing out of both sides of the crisply cut LARGE HOLES. But I've killed a whitetail doe that had a healing hole from a Foster in one side of her skinny little neck!

I was planning on looking into the Hogue short LOP stock, as the gun remains legal length with it. The pistol grip makes it too short,and I never really cared for a pistol grip anyway.
As for the single point sling, I'm not sure what your talking about but I'll google it. I was planning on finding some sort of sling that would allow the gun to stay in front of me at about waist level.
The gun comes with ghost ring sights but I'm sure they can be changed easily enough. The only other mod I'm considering is the forend w/flashlight. Seems like it might be handy in the dark if a bear comes looking for an easy snack.
The gun itself is not a Remington, but rather a copy of the Remington that is supposed to be well made and reliable as the original.

I await the ballistic tests from our friend from PA with "lead bullets coming apart". As a point of fact most experts will tell you that a large lead bullet will penetrate farther than any expanding bullet.
Unlike PA, we have lots of Griz bears in WY and they are spreading their range 30-50 miles per year. I have seen many tracks, no bears up close and take some comfort in the fact that no rider on a horse has ever been taken down by a Griz. Regardless, I still carry a 10 bore BPS and S&W 329 loaded with 300 gr hardcasts. Hope to never see this:



As a point of fact, one of the most famous BROWN BEAR guides over on the Kamchatka Peninsula uses a bone stock model 12 Winchester 12 bore with plain old Foster slugs and has killed more bears than any of us will ever see.

If it's already got ghost rings, don't change them. Just saying a big bead is all you need for defense.

But if it was my butt on the line in bear country I would be packing a Remington or a Mossberg 590.

You could probably find an old Wingmaster at a pawnshop and mod it up exactly to your needs and have an uber reliable bear fighting gun for whatever the knockoff is costing you.

Singlepoint slings attach at the junction of the receiver and the wrist of the buttstock. Most usually set them up so the snaplink rides near the solar plexus.

You don't want a long gun flopping at waist level in front of you. The last thing you need when things get mortal is to have a 7 pound shotgun knocking against your C.O. Jones! Kinda distracting and painful.

I don't care if you point it out, they aren't my shotguns.

I use the Hogue shorty full stock on my 14" 870 clone. Works good but you may need to keep your right thumb on the side of the reciever if you are prone to thumb in nose syndrome.

I am not doing any ballistic test for you or anyone else.I also hope you never see a grizzly that close with your feeble armnament espically if you are on a Horse. he probably won't get the horse as it will have enough sense to run away leaving you for the bear to snack on.good luck.

The thought of having to deal with bears like this with any shotgun scares me
I'll take a rifle everytime

You are a wise man. when I was fishing in Alaska I carried a remington 721 30-06 and 220 gr bullets I still diden't want to run into a grizzley. I had one about 100 yds away he was also fishing and watching me. so I went down stream about a mile so I couldent see him any more and we both were happy.

PS; nice bear.

Hmmm, I've seen many hundreds... likely thousands.

Had to shoot some and got to shoot others...

Mr. xxclaro;
I have no experience with grizzly bears to speak of so I find the opinions on your thread interesting reading.

However, as I do wrench on the odd firearm as a hobby, I did work on a short 870 clone that a fellow picked up at Milarm in Edmonton. I am sorry to report that the one I worked on was not the equal of one of the older Remington 870's in terms of reliable functioning.

This particular one had feeding issues and would either not feed the shell out of the magazine or would feed them all at once. Sorry but I can't recall now which it was or perhaps it was both at different times.

I played with the two shell retaining arms that parallel the receiver and hold and release the shells out of the magazine and was able to get it to work most of the time.

The temper on them did not feel right to me and they were quite roughly machined I thought, but I'm no expert on such matters by any stretch.

I recommended that he look into getting Remington parts to replace them or at least new ones from Milarm. If memory serves, last time we spoke he had replaced them and it now fed reliably.

Anyway, I�m sure you will do this, but my standard advise to anyone when I�m working on a social sort of firearm for them is to practice with it as much as they can, even with dummy ammo to test for functioning. I�ve been amazed and disappointed at how many I�ve worked on that didn�t function consistently.

Good luck with your bear gun sir, whatever you choose. May you never need it.

Regards,
Dwayne

The only slug that I'd use and/or recomened for big Bears is the wide heat treated hard cast slugs by Dixe Slug in Old Town Florida http://www.dixieslugs.com/index.html


At the Linebaugh seminar in Jackson, Ms. a few years back and I got to witness the Terminator slug in action and it is impressive.



My 416 Rigby with a Federal factory load ammo with te 400 grain Nosler Partition was shot into the same media and pentrated 30" and left about a 1" diameter wound, the Terminator slug which is 730 grains and .730 diametor made ofr rifled slug barrels) pentrated 29" and blew a wound channel nearly 4" in diameter

I would use a Terminator slug with total confidence and I can't say that about other slugs