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Getting back to the Lolo Zone and the Clearwater Basin in general, In my opinion, Buzz is spot on...

There were problems before wolves with a lack of calf survival, poor habitat, and poor winter range. Biologists knew this area had problems before the wolf arrived and all the signs for a major melt-down were in place. The melt-down hit with the winter of 1996 at the same time wolves were turned loose. Elk have never recovered even though it took several years for wolves to inhabit the region. Without wolves and increased killing of bears and lions things might improve some, but it won't go back to the 1950's again. Not without major habitat changes anyway.

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The thing everyone forgets, is we already had Wolves in Idaho and the Selway.They have made dramatic changes in Elk populations..Blame it on what you want but I live and work right in the middle of Idaho and spend alot of time in the vicinity of this topic...

Lord knows, the locals don't know squat about nuttin without an official Government report from the paper pushers that make it official.My neighbor in McCall Idaho was on the pre Wolf intro study in the '90's and everything he found was ignored by the upper level, because it was not what they wanted to here.

I saw many Wolves prior to this Canadian fiasco.Now there gone and the Canadian Wolves prevail without birth control until just recently....The Wolves are everywhere,especially in Central Idaho..The McCall zone and Elk City zones were two of the first to fill there wolf quota's this last year yet the Lolo/Selway both remain open today with few taken to date.

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Bob, you are absolutely correct.


I could care less about 815 word posts from educated idiots(and you ladies know who you are.....grin) trying to explain how wolves aren't a problem and 'belong' in the current scheme of things. Sure they need a few in Yellowstone but outside of the Park I don't think they are needed at all.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wolves eat year round, right?
And this improves elk/deer numbers how?

Of course this is coming from a DSMF in Montana.

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I elk, lion, and bear hunted extensively in the Selway and Lochsa drainiages prior to wolves being released. Up until that time, I had never even seen a wolf track in that country. I don't know of anyone who lost hounds to wolves, found kills from wolves, or heard them howl. There was the occasional rumors about wolves and there was the famous pic taken by the IDF&G of a lone wolf on Kelly Creek while helicopter surveying wintering elk herds in the mid-1980's. But if they were there, they laid pretty low and were darn few...

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GOV. trying to be GOD....
Habitat being the real cause of the decline, and I will venture to say not just in these two areas, would it not make more sense to allow more logging, and controlled burns?
This would put more people to work, healthier forests, and so forth..
Could the real story hear be that the wolf is being used as a cover up for bad management (GOV.) decisions?

Every time I hear the GOV. trying to do something for THE PEOPLE, it is always leans towards a political agenda getting in the way with common sense issues..


The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
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Originally Posted by logcutter
The thing everyone forgets, is we already had Wolves in Idaho and the Selway.They have made dramatic changes in Elk populations..Blame it on what you want but I live and work right in the middle of Idaho and spend alot of time in the vicinity of this topic...

Lord knows, the locals don't know squat about nuttin without an official Government report from the paper pushers that make it official.My neighbor in McCall Idaho was on the pre Wolf intro study in the '90's and everything he found was ignored by the upper level, because it was not what they wanted to here.

I saw many Wolves prior to this Canadian fiasco.Now there gone and the Canadian Wolves prevail without birth control until just recently....The Wolves are everywhere,especially in Central Idaho..The McCall zone and Elk City zones were two of the first to fill there wolf quota's this last year yet the Lolo/Selway both remain open today with few taken to date.

Jayco



I object to the term "Canadian fiasco." These wolves are duel citizens.

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Originally Posted by Brasshound
GOV. trying to be GOD....
Habitat being the real cause of the decline, and I will venture to say not just in these two areas, would it not make more sense to allow more logging, and controlled burns?
This would put more people to work, healthier forests, and so forth..
Could the real story hear be that the wolf is being used as a cover up for bad management (GOV.) decisions?

Every time I hear the GOV. trying to do something for THE PEOPLE, it is always leans towards a political agenda getting in the way with common sense issues..


Isn't it the ranchers that played god in the first place?
Just sayin

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Originally Posted by tangozulu
Isn't it the ranchers that played god in the first place?
Just sayin




Mankind in general.

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They were there but not in the numbers of today.Did you see Grizz also?There there and have been also.It is one thing to spend a week hunting in an area and another to live in it or close by.

I new of two Wolf packs in the McCall region.One down on the South Fork between Yellowpine and Warm Lake.I saw them and even talked to them on one occasion.I saw lone Wolves in the West Mountain area as well as Elk City and Powell working mostly around there and your right,they adapted and rarely attacked dogs.

My vary first Elk hunt was in the selway area in 1952 as a baby in my momma's lap horseback. grinI packed into the Bargaman creek drainage the first time on my horses in the 60's..My last hunt this last year(3 weeks total not counting the fishing trips and drives) was also in the Selway area and saw quite a few Elk buttt.

I do no the area.I was in Elk City two days ago and my son just got back last night with his friend who grew up there with family roots deep in the area.In our local paper there is a column from Lowell and Kooskie Idaho...

Not trying to sound like a smart azz but I was born and raised in Idaho and logged 40 years all over the central part living where I worked.I now spend every day I can close to or in the Selway/Gospal Hump and Frank Church(Which irritates me as I liked to just call it Chamberlain Basin without a Democratic name).

The F&G also transplanted problem Grizz from Jellystone to Central Idaho but that is also unofficial, except from the low classed workers who did the work and a hound hunter who lost a couple dogs but got the hair to prove it out of a dead dogs mouth.That was in the McCall area just North.

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TZ,
I would have to say you are probably correct, but not in the way one would think today.. When all these issues began,, Way before we were born, the GOV. was the Rancher.

So again, not for the People, but for them...


The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
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Quote

I object to the term "Canadian fiasco." These wolves are duel citizens.


grin

Yup they are now!!

Never did much understand how (as an example) myself reading the net and telling everyone in Montana how things are there in there own back yard..Don't make much sense to me but it is the net where we all learn to hunt and fish the right way. grin

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Originally Posted by logcutter


I now spend every day I can close to or in the Selway/Gospal Hump and Frank Church(Which irritates me as I liked to just call it Chamberlain Basin without a Democratic name).


Jayco


The Church is bad azz. It is a lot bigger than just Chamberlain Basin: it includes the Bighorn Crags and Big Creek as well as a lot of other country. I remember packing into Sheepeater Lakes when I was in Jr High (about 1993-94) and hearing a pack howl. That was a first for me and remember how much deeper and more pronounced their voices were compared to coyotes yipping. They never bothered anyone and nobody even thought about trying to kill one. I miss those days.



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Dog Hunter

I know, but I never liked Frank Church as a Democratic senator and it shows,I guess.My wife worked at Big creek for a short time and she and I were the first couple to get married at the Yellowpine church, some 22 years ago.I almost moved there even putting some money on a house there,then backed out..Coulda made a killing on a 22,000 house then, worth over 100,000 now.

I still have alot of friends there and spend some time down there in little Tahoe(McCall) but much prefer it here.

Yeah..That's the problem..No one believes there were as many Wolves, already here, that there were because I hunted there and never saw or herd one..Hell..I wanted a Wolf so bad this year right in the middle of them but never saw one..Saw there tracks,poop and blood(O'Yeah) but never had one in my sights.Others were lucky but not me..

There a very Wiley critter.

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Dog_Hunter,
I'll clarify my statement for you:

The Largest Wolf, weighed this year by department personal was 117 pounds.


I wanted to take a scalp, but the kill was not mine.
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Quote
would it not make more sense to allow more logging, and controlled burns?
This would put more people to work, healthier forests, and so forth..
To me is surely would! Only two things standing in the way, red tape and money! The red tape part can get complicated quite quickly with lawsuits brought forth by those that appeal the burns/tree harvests. One of the lawsuit happiest groups I know of started in and is based in Idaho...

The cost of a prescribed (they're not called controlled anymore because too many got away laugh ) burn would quite shock many folks. I only know about them in pinyon/juniper and sagebrush areas and those run north of $200/acre. I can't imagine anything involving big trees would be anything but more expensive.

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I won't mention where my opinion lies as far as whether wolves are good or bad. I do see that wherever/whenever wolves are mentioned, folks go nuts. There was an aticle by the Denver Post where some "experts" had found scat from wolves here in Colorado. I made the mistake of replying that I had seen a dead wolf near the house and had seen tracks even in remote areas including a wilderness where I occassionaly hunt. This has been over the last 5 years. Damn near hit one on the highway years ago. In summer they sure look scrawny, long skinny legs. A fellow mentioned wolves killing 16,000 elk a year in his state, hell, we kill that many just by hitting them with vehicles. It never seems to end, folks, no matter what position they take, get so emotional that they either take information out of context, make it up on the spot, or simply ignore whatever the details are in the article and read only what they want to see. I was attacked for mentioning that regardless of what any body thought or wanted, wolves are already here in Colorado, and from what I've seen with my own eyes, for at least five years now. I have some questions, maybe someone has thoughts without going nuts or figuring insults are the answer.

Whatever happened to a lot of the wolf hybrids that were all the rage years ago? Everyone thought it was cool to have a part wolf. Did any of those go feral. I've been next to feral dogs in the forests, not very friendly. Watched feral dogs kill everything from deer to chipmunks. Would a hybrid do the same thing? Will a feral canine attack humans?

An article referenced within the first page or two states something about wolves infected. It mentions dogs infesting sheep and coyotes being infected etc etc. Then mentions how wolves are now infected. Would this infection be limited to wolves, would any canine be able to get infected and in turn spread this infection? Our pet dogs, feral dogs, wolves, coyotes, foxes, and possibly any other carnivore such as ferrets, badgers, wolverines, etc.? The article states that 87% of all moose are killed by disease and parasites, if that is true, what is the remaining 13% killed by? I believe this article focuses on one particular state and seems to have a negative slant towards wolves.

If wolf populations have reached sustaining levels as was intended by all this government intervention, why shouldn't they be treated like any other fur bearer and be hunted? Hunting has worked really well on limiting coyote populations here in our metro areas (My attempt at sarcasm). How may years before wildife officials realize that even yaer round open season won't elimnate them and adjust the regulations on hunting them. But this begs the question, how did they get eliminated in a lot of states to begin with. Hunting, trapping, poison, or some combination of natural and human effort.

My hope would be that at some point, the truth stretching, out and out lies, and general BS from all sides will end and the truth will float to the surface. From both sides.

But the bottom line, they're here, and in growing numbers.

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About time...

http://www.rmef.org/NewsandMedia/NewsReleases/2010/WolfGroupMotives.htm

Quote
February 26, 2010

Elk Foundation Calls Out Motives of Wolf Groups


MISSOULA, Mont.�In letters to legislators and newspapers across the West, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation is calling out groups like Defenders of Wildlife, Western Wildlife Conservancy and others for their disingenuous use of data on wolves and elk.

The RMEF action was prompted by each group�s recent op-ed articles in the media, as well as testimony before Utah lawmakers by Western Wildlife Conservancy Executive Director Kirk Robinson. All cited RMEF statistics to argue that restored wolf populations have somehow translated to growing elk herds in the northern Rockies.


�The theory that wolves haven�t had a significant adverse impact on some elk populations is not accurate. We�ve become all too familiar with these groups� tactic of cherry-picking select pieces of information to support their own agenda, even when it is misleading,� said David Allen, RMEF president and CEO. �We will not allow that claim to go unchallenged.�


RMEF population data, which come from state wildlife agencies, show that elk populations are expanding the most in areas of the northern Rockies where wolves are not present. However, where elk share habitat with wolves, such as the greater Yellowstone area, some elk populations are declining fast. In fact, since the mid-1990s introduction of gray wolves, the northern Yellowstone elk herd has dropped from about 17,000 to 7,100 animals�a 58 percent decline. Other localities in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming also are documenting precipitous downward trends.

Additionally, some research shows that elk remaining in areas of concentrated wolf populations are suffering nutrition loss, lower body weights and decreasing birth rates.

Allen said, �Every wildlife conservation agency, both state and federal, working at ground zero of wolf restoration�Idaho, Montana and Wyoming�has abundant data to demonstrate how undermanaged wolf populations can compromise local elk herds and local livestock production. There�s just no dispute, and emotion-over-science is not the way to professionally manage wildlife.�

RMEF continues to support state-regulated wolf management to include hunting and other viable methods. This position is supported by new reports of diseased wolf populations in the Yellowstone area.

�When wolves are too abundant, they�re more susceptible to diseases, just like all wildlife. The viruses and mange now spreading through wolf packs is another sign of way too many wolves,� said Allen. �Defenders of Wildlife would like to spin sick wolves as a reason to end hunting. But real conservationists know that diseased wildlife populations need better management. Hunting as a management tool delivers that, period.�

He added, �Remember, pro-wolf groups make their living by prolonging this conflict. There is no real incentive for them to admit that wolves are overly recovered. Fundraising is their major motive and they�ve built a goldmine by filing lawsuits and preaching that nature will find its own equilibrium between predators and prey if man would just leave it alone. That�s a myth. The truth is that people are the most important part of the equation. This isn�t the Wild West anymore. People live here�actually quite a lot of us. So our land and resources must be managed. Wildlife must be managed. Radical spikes and dips in populations show that we should be doing it better. It�s not profitable for plaintiffs, but the rest of us would be better served if the conflict ended and conservation professionals were allowed to get on with their business of managing wildlife, including a well regulated hunting strategy.�

In 2009, RMEF got involved in the ongoing wolf litigation, supporting defendant agencies by filing legal briefs used in federal court to help delist wolves and proceed with hunting��facts conveniently ignored by groups who misuse our name, data and credibility to prolong the conflict. We stand for elk and other wildlife and what is happening right now is simply not good wildlife management,� said Allen.

See Allen�s letters to editors, Utah Senator Dennis Stowell and more at www.rmef.org.


About the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation:
Snowy peaks, dark timber basins and grassy meadows. RMEF is leading an elk country initiative that has conserved or enhanced habitat on over 5.6 million acres�a land area equivalent to a swath three miles wide and stretching along the entire Continental Divide from Canada to Mexico. RMEF also works to open, secure and improve public access for hunting, fishing and other recreation. Get involved at www.rmef.org or 800-CALL ELK.




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