Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Best defense handgun for the woods?

Mr Walter, a couple more lame points to consider. First, one of the earlier posts was made refering to having a large number of rounds so they could, judging from the context of the post, "hose down the neighborhood" as if this was good tactics. I would point out that in the days when M1 Garands were used in combat (which sounds like you want your hunting trip to be), the standard load was 80 rounds, sometimes with some bandoliers for backup. With the advent of the select fire weapons, the standard load went to 300 rounds, sometimes more, and the hit probability went DOWN. Is this an improvement? Accurate shooting with an adequete caliber will do the job. Who or what are you going to shoot 15 times anyway? It still takes longer to shoot 15 accurate rounds than 6 or 8. In my case, the heavy caliber revolver is more practical because of the grizzly situation. (If you are now going to tell me that a high capacity small or medium caliber auto is a better bear gun that a heavy revolver, I would have to conclude you are not familiar with bear encounters, and are operating on pure theory)

I also tend to shoot a revolver better than an auto. I have shot plate shoots, and hunted with both, I just shoot a revolver better. Revolvers point more natural for me, and most guys I know. I have shot thousands of rounds through 1911's, and tens of thousands through various 22 auto pistols, but was never able to consistantly hit running rabbits, cans thrown in the air, or snap shoot and hit small objects. Your milage may vary. My main objective in being in the woods is relaxation, hunting game, and keeping bears off my tail. If my antique, obsolete revolver doesn't keep me safe, I guess I will just have to suffer the consequences.

I've never heard of anyone being assaulted by 8 assailants while hunting or camping. The situations I am aware of, the bad guys don't like dealing with anyone armed to begin with. They tend to go elsewhere where there is less resistance. Is our hunting trip are we talking about being on in an inner city neighborhood, or out in the woods somewhere?

No disrespect intended, but from the tone of your reply I get the feeling you like to argue a point, rather than discuss and compare notes to learn. I hope this is not the general tone of this forum.

BTW, the murder rate in Wyoming averages around 20 a year, much less for the whole state than most cities of any size. Chicago was just celebrating getting the murder rate under 500 for the year.

My vote would be a very reliable 1911 for "social encouters" of the bad kind. But that's just my personal favorite.

Whatever you are most proficient with would be the best for you. You only win if you live through it!

I don't believe that anyone in a lethal force situation achieves a 100% hit ratio. In fact if we take Cops as a sample of American citizenry most often encountering such scenarios, I believe that their hit ratio hovers around what? 30%?

In woods scenarios we are envisioning the handgun used of necessity as a defensive tool at ranges beyond the norm, increasing the number of likely misses exponentially.

High capacity magazines do not preclude skill.

Birdwatcher

"High capacity magazines do not preclude skill."

No they don't, but they are usually found in pistols designed for short-range encounters. This thread has drifted from the �best defensive handgun for the woods� to more of a general discussion of everyday favorites. Hi-cap magazines are generally included with crappy triggers, imprecise sights, and weak cartridges.

The course of fire you described in an earlier post (bowling pin, interactive or simple combat silhouettes�set up from 40 to 100 yards from the firing line) is actually fairly easy with one change � man-sized targets � forehead to toes. �Easy� also assumes I get to choose the handgun. This isn�t bragging, and those of you that think it is need to make a date with a quality 4� or 6� revolver.

Those of you with the skill to be a threat with a hi-cap pistol at 75-yards would be positively dangerous with the right revolver at the same distance.

I primarily deer hunt with a handgun, which isn�t an indicator of my level of skill � maybe I suck at it. My point is I�ve fired lots of rounds in the woods and from deer stands trying to get a handle on what I can hit and what I can�t. A hunting pard or three are usually along with me and they try their hands as well. Even the worst shooter in the group can raise hell with a deer-sized target at 75-yards with a quality revolver. The level of difficulty goes up dramatically with a hi-cap pistol.

A �hit� on a deer has a much smaller margin than a hit on a bad guy in a woods encounter. We all strive to hit the �pie plate� on a deer to ensure a clean and recoverable kill. My only goal with a bad guy is make him stop shooting at me. Sorry to be graphic, but in the Wisconsin tragedy a gut-shot, kneecapped, or one-handed Vang (the killer) would likely have stopped shooting.

You mentioned the hit ratio for police officers at around 30%. I�ll buy that; except I�ll counter that speed was the overriding factor � not distance.

Good post JOG. 100% agreement here.

Jog,



Backup handguns (I think that's what this concerns) are also pistols designed for short range encounters, since they are typically short barreled guns, seldom going over 6" and most would be 4, 4 5/8, 5 1/2. Anymore and most guys leave 'em at home after a day or two of totin' all that iron around with everything else we tend to carry. And that gets worse with some smartypants coming up with some gizmo I just gotta have. Sure the short barreled guns can hit at yardage into the triple digits, but the guys that can make those shots with a short sight plane typically leave the rifle at home.

I carry a Glock 20 with a 17 round clip for backup duty. I carry it full because I like the balance it gives me. It's not heavy, carries flat to my body and is ugly so contact with rocks don't elicit cursing. It's got a 3.5# trigger that works great if you can master that Glock toggle after the first somewhat squishy shot, if needed. I can hit stuff with it pretty good too.

When the handgun is my primary gun, as in handgun hunting, the whole scenario changes. I might go with a full size Kimber in 460 Rowland, or the 5 1/2" Redhawk 44 mag, or the 8 3/8" 454 Raging Bull. All are scoped or electronically sighted, and deadly to 100 yards or more with a basic to crude rest. Any of these three might go along if I'm feeling sporty, but most likely the 10 1/2" S&W 500 with it's Holosight will be what leaves the truck with me. I have a lot of confidence in it and the terminal performance is what you'd expect it to be.

Does this apply to Hi-Powers too? and is a 9mm to be sneezed at out past 50 yards?



'twould be easier, but perhaps not applicable. Should it be assumed that an opponent would be firing from out in the open?



And speed wouldn't be a factor in the woods? Anyways I expect stress played a role too. Might your own hit percentage decline somewhat if them deer were shooting back?



"Sigh".... fair enough...

Birdwatcher

RickyD,

The concept of a defensive handgun for the woods is already operating on the fringe of common sense. First, the odds of having an encounter with another Vang-type character are remote to say the least. Second, your primary deer rifle or handgun is unavailable Third, the encounter is going to play out in the manner we think it�s going to play out. Finally, if any bullets had been zinging around Vang he probably would have run for it. Vang knew the last five victims we unarmed, and he actually let the two people on the ATV go by because he saw they had a rifle.

So, my choice is based on having really, really bad luck that day.

In Birdwatcher�s opening post he wrote, �But if it came down to a handgun, I submit that the ability to lay down a volume of fire would be a prime consideration.� Even though I disagree, he makes a darn good point. I figure the overwhelming percentage of bad guys are going to run screaming like lil� girls when Birdwatcher cuts loose with his hi-cap while yellin�, �YOU WANT A PIECE OF THIS!?�

BUT, since I�m having really, really bad luck that day I figure my particular bad guy isn�t going to run, or, for some reason I have to stay and fight � friend or family is at risk.

No matter where the encounter occurs, back alley or back forty, tactics play a bigger role than the handgun. In a woods encounter my tactics would be to create space between the bad guy and me, take cover, and make him come to me. If the bad guy shoots me beforehand, well, there ain�t gonna be no made-for-TV movie. If I succeed at my tactics, I want a handgun that lends itself to overcoming the space. Maybe my luck will change and you�ll see me, played by yours truly, right after the �Seinfeld� re-run.

The power of positive thinking has me lying prone behind the base of a tree, peeking out with a 4� S&W M66 .357 Mag rested along the trunk, and I haven�t yet wet my pants. The sights grant me a nice picture to 75-yard plus, the single-action trigger is better than most rifles, and the 158-grain HP bullet is going to raise hell no matter what part of the bad guy I hit or how much clothing he�s wearing. If the bad guy exposes much, this is a shot I can make � assuming my pants are still dry. No doubt, there are bigger, badder, and better revolvers for this scenario, but the inconvenience of carrying the M66 is the most I�d put up with.

I believe my tactics are the smart play. Staying with them, but substituting say�a Glock 20�for the M66 and I get a poor sight picture and a horrendous trigger pull for the task � probably the worst there is for a 75-yard shot at a target with some movement. If hi-caps have a place at all in my fantasy, it would have to have a single-action mode. Also, I�m not sure a guy could shoot his way out of a snot rag with a 10mm. I just said that to see if you�re still reading this far.

Birdwatcher,

�Does this apply to Hi-Powers too? and is a 9mm to be sneezed at out past 50 yards?�

Low blow�you�re gonna make me disavow the Hi-Power in public, ain�t ya? Eyup, if I had to make a shot past 50-yards � the goal of my anti-Vang tactics � the Hi-Power wouldn�t make the cut. The 9mm cartridge wouldn�t be my first choice, but it�s more of elimination by default � I�d be using a revolver.

�Should it be assumed that an opponent would be firing from out in the open?�

I sure hope so. I also hope he�ll feel sorry for me and spot me the first couple shots. If he�s going to be a prick about it and present a small target, it reinforces my decision to use a handgun capable of some precision.

�And speed wouldn't be a factor in the woods? Anyways I expect stress played a role too. Might your own hit percentage decline somewhat if them deer were shooting back?�

Absolutely, speed and stress would be huge factors � not to mention killer deer � but those factors don�t tip the balance in favor of a hi-cap. My stress will be the same no matter what handgun I have, and I�m willing to give up the hi-cap�s speed and firepower in favor of the revolver�s precision � in a woods scenario.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ya gotta put those lines about 3/4 of the way down the post for us bass-ackwards types who read magazines from the back to the front. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

OMG beer shot out of my nose when I read that and I wasn't even drinking! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well heck, rather than being shown to be WRONG on this issue (God forbid <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) I'm gonna say that, if they are gonna make the odds even longer by hiding, I should get more chances to win, ergo hi caps. Plus, if one happens to be INCAPABLE of much precision (I ain't saying who), the revolver argument becomes a moot point anyway.

Birdwatcher

Birdwatcher,

I hear ya - my best chance could well be a wild-azzed charge to hit the bad guy with a log. Logs rank highly for one swat stops.

Hold on a minute whilst I don my plaid salesman's jacket...

If you don't have a 6" M66 (or M19) in your arsenal, consider giving one a fondle the next time you're shopping. My suggestion has nothing to do with this thread really, more that the 6" K-frames are about as entertaining and elegant as revolvers get (and a great compliment to your Marlin).

The M686 might be a "better" revolver, but its overall feel is quite a bit more sluggish than the K's. Maybe it's the full-lug barrel and the slightly heavier frame, but more likely it's simply the 6" K's are one of those designs that come together - like your 3" M60.

Drilling a paper plate at 50-yards is a piece of cake with any kind of rest. Just use a 6-o'clock hold so the sights don't obsure the plate.

Malamute -

No insult intended. Just saying the ownership of a hi-cap pistol does not make one a bad shot. Neither does it make one a good shot, or better protected if one cannot shoot.

JOG -

I can hit pretty well with my 10mm Glock at 75 yards, and reasonably well at 150 yards.

The Jan 2005 Gunworld magazine has an article on the 4th annual Elmer Keith Shoot, held near Spokane each year. The only targets are at 150 yards. Read the article. It mentions first and second place, I was third out of 40+ shooters.

You're invited. Show me your stuff.

David,

"I can hit pretty well with my 10mm Glock at 75 yards, and reasonably well at 150 yards."

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Yeah, so? Do you hit better with a 4" revolver with adjustable sights in SA mode?

David... what does a 150 yard pistol target look like? Also, what were the rules??

JOG - I shoot a 5" Smith 25-5 45 Colt at the Elmer match for score. I plink with the Glock before the match. I do shoot the Smiths (I have a 4" and a 5") better than the Glock at 150 yards, but inside 25 yards the difference is academic.

Birdwatcher - 150 yard targets only, open sights only. Any caliber, straight-walled cartridges only.

Looks like this:

BTW, a friend sent me this today -

Saw Ted Nugent take a Cape Buffalo on TV with a Glock 10mm

Yesterday I saw a scene on TV that I thought I would never see: Ted Nugent puts a Cape Buffalo down with his Glock 10mm. Not sure the range, probably less than 50 yards. The buff stumbled at the first shot and went down on the second shot, both shots broadside through the shoulders. The buff staggered back to his feet and Ted put several more into the beast's shoulder and the buff could not take anymore and went down and rolled over kicking up quite the dust storm and bellowing a mightly death moan.

Needless to say, it was the coolest hunting kill scene I have seen on TV.

I know that many think Ted Nugent is kind of radical but he is a good voice for our hunting and gun rights and everyone knows where he stands which is more than I can say for many people. Even I change my mind from time to time. Ted is who he says he is.

Wouldn't it have been cool if Ross Seyfried had videoed taking buffalo with his 45 Colts? I know he took atleast two buffs if not more.

CM

Congratulations, David. That would take some good shooting!

I gotta say, I'm not comfortable with that kind of display. It sounds a bit too sensationalistic (is that a word?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />), to me. The buff deserved better than multiple shots with a marginal (for buff) caliber. I like Nuge, but he gets a bit wild sometimes. Sounds like this was one. But he is original !

Just my take.