Home Forums Birds & Dogs Waterfowl Non toxic in older shotguns

My Fausti o/u crapped out on me in the middle of waterfowl season. Started to pick up my grandad's duck gun, a M11 Remington, when I remembered sheel shot is harder than old shotgun barrels.

So my question's this. What non toxic load is safe for older guns? I found some shotshells for older guns called 'Classic Double', but at that price and the volume I shoot,it's cheaper for me to buy another, modern back up duck gun.Federals black Cloud is reasonably priced but is it safe in older guns?

O

Hi Outcast,

I�d be reluctant to shoot any steel or hevi-shot load through chokes greater than Modified (0.020� constriction). While you might get away with it, the chances of getting a small ring bulge should not be overlooked.

There are various non-toxic loads available to you - however, they do come at considerable cost. You can safely shoot loads comprising Bismuth, Nice-Shot or Tungsten Matrix.

Personally, I�d be sending the gun to Briley and getting them to install their line of thin-wall choke tubes. This will give some versatility to the gun as well as provide a huge range of constrictions that are suitable to pellet materials such as steel.

Sak..,

Yeah, bismuth looks to run about $3 per shot. At that price, given the number of rounds I put in the air, it may be cheaper just to buy a modern auto.

Was never much of an auto guy but heavy duck loads thru my O/U put a monster bruise on the ol shoulder. A local gunsmith installed thin wall chokes in the M11 and the third skeet load blew the choke out and split the muzzel. It's now down to 25". Looks like a poly choke is my only option. I've not had much luck with shotguns this year!

O

The non-tox alternatives are definitely not cost friendly. If you do a lot of hunting, then I would suggest a new barrel that is made for steel shot or a new gun. I know you can get barrels for Browning A5's that are specifically for steel, don't know about your M11.

But if you're only hunting now and then, or just feeling nostalgic, grab a box or two of bismuth and let er rip.

Outcast,

If your ok with shooting a 25" barrel, I'd still look at getting the gun fitted with Briley thin-wall chokes. Unlike many other choke systems of this nature, they are compatible with steel shot. Similarly, I would not even begin to compare the workmanship at Briley with any other operation. IMO, they are the best.

On a side note. What do you guys think about steel shot in general? I don't think it kills nearly as well lead. Based on the number of cripples I found dead this year, I think it's a toss up between which slowly kills more ducks. Lead poisioning or steel shot.

O

OUTCAST,

Come on, don�t buy into that crap!

Steel shot kills just as well as lead or any other product on the market��.dead is dead. Provided you�ve increased pellet sizes by one or two sizes larger, pattern density and pellet energy has been matched to your old lead shot load.

Steel shot in #3 or#2 will kill large duck and pheasant�s right out to 50 and 60 yards respectively without a problem provided you have an appropriate choke constriction and load.

When you�ve got a spare minute have a read of this;

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fwt/back_issues/september01/article5.html

Back when it was first introduced, steel absolutely SUCKED BALLS!!!

But it has come a long way since then. . .

I have no problems killing most any duck/goose I shoot at using steel. Then again, most of my shots are 35 yds or less. Occasionally, I'll drop a 90 yarder on a snow goose with my 10ga. Call it the golden BB or whatever, but doing it consistently says something for the load.

I never duck hunt with anything larger than #4 shot and goose hunt with #2, #1, BB or BBB depending on what species I'm after. #6 steel is devastating on ducks at 30 yds or less. The faster the better, speed kills. I won't shoot much of anything under 1450 fps.

Blackclouds kill the chit out of ducks and geese. It is expensive as steel goes but I like the birds I shoot at to die. Before BC's came out I shot Wincester Supremes, also very good. JMO

SAk..,

This season was my first with steel shot. Used BB. Some ducks, some geese, anywhere from 30yds to 50 or there abouts. Too many flew on and that never happened with pheasants of chuckar. Perhaps it was just me.

Guy I was hunting with used Black cloud and seemed to have better luck. The experiment continues. Read the article. Perhaps I should switch to #2's.

O

I only hunt with doubles made before WWII, so it is non-steel, non-tox for me. Sure, Bismuth, Nice Shot, etc. is dam*ed expensive but it's my only alternative. Even though I fire 100's of rounds a year at ducks and geese, I willingly shoulder the cost. And no, I'm not rich. Semi-retired and scraping nickels to get by. When compared to the other costs of supporting a waterfowling addiction, the cost of alternative shot becomes insignifigant.

I did make an interesting observation: my "light" 1 1/8oz loads of #2 Nice Shot kill just as cleanly as my blind/pit buddy's go-devil magnum steel loads. Often better. Of the dozen guys who hunt together regularly here, only a couple still insist on using heavy steel loads. More 20's and 16's are showing up regularly too. Myths are being debunked on a regular basis! Heck, one guy has used a .410 1100 more than any of his twelves this year. Handloading a max load of Nice Shot 4's (11/16oz. I believe), and keeping his shots to under 30 yds, he killed as many geese as anybody else, almost always one shot kills.

This isn't to say it is the panacea for all waterfowling problems. What works for one guy is a joke to another. I'm merely suggesting that the commonly held tenets of this sport do bear questioning, and thinking outside the box is allowed. It's all good.

Hi OUTCAST,

Most of us have been done this learning path.

BB steel shot is great for geese, even out to maximum sensible shooting distances i.e. 60-65 yards. Unfortunately, it simply lacks the pellet count and subsequent pattern density to be of any use for duck hunting.

Steel #2's are an excellent option for large duck such as Mallard and Pintail right out to +60 yards when coupled with a steel shot suitable IM, LF or F choke. Like the BB's, the 2's are not so good for Teal as patterns become very thin. A great general purpose duck hunting shot size would probably be #3. In a 1-1/8 ounce or 1-1/4 ounce load, this will handle most of your duck hunting requirements.

If your hunting over decoys at ranges under 35 yards, a 1-1/8 ounce load of #4's with a IC or LM choke will hadle all duck species. I use some old Drylok 1-1/8 ounce loads of #6 through a IC choke at ranges under 30 yards..........nothing gets through.

I'd strongly recommend that you stick with premium ammunition such as Winchester Drylok, Remington Nitro Steel, Federal Ultra-Shok etc, particularly for extended range hunting situations. These loads generally have high quality loading components such as well rounded, true to size pellets which are vital to decent penetration and pattern performance.........this is what kills with consistency.

Here you can buy a new 3" 870 express for $269 on sale. This is about equal to 80 soft non-tox shells at the same store. 3" steel #2, 1 1/8oz at 1560fps out of the modified remchoke will kill any duck or goose in range. Tweeking this combo for decoy hunts or pass shooting can change your preferance a bit, but as an all around combo the above will do it

Hi Baltz526,

The 870 is a fairly reliable gun and for that price it�s worth looking at.

I try to avoid ultra high velocity loads where possible. I believe it�s a case of diminishing returns � improvements in one area come at the cost of something equally valuable. Generally I find that loads incorporating velocities upwards of 1,350 � 1,400 fps really don�t pattern all that well. In fact, all the shells I�ve patterned have been dreadful performers. This is despite spending hundreds of dollars on barrel modifications and quality chokes to get them to work well.

The other obvious problem with really high load velocities is recoil. These shells kick hard, particularly in fixed breech guns. IMO, the prolonged effects of recoil work negatively on a hunters shooting ability and in certain cases they create long term problems such as flinching.

I have played with steel shot handloads with a velocity range of 1,250 � 1,275 fps in 1-1/8oz and 1-1/4oz payloads. These were extremely effective when matched to an appropriate shot size, choke, bird species and shooting distance. For decoying work a 1-1/8oz load of #3 or #4 handled virtually any bird species and shooting distances under 35 yards. For long pass shooting situations, I found that a 1-1/4oz load of #2�s and a Light Full (0.030� constriction) choke will take large ducks out to 55, 60, 65 yards without problem.

As for geese, I generally use factory ammunition. Usually Winchester Drylok in either a 2-3/4� 1-1/4oz or 3� 1-3/8oz load of BB�s. I�ve played with other pellets sizes such as BBB, 1 and 2, however, the BB�s just work well for everything from decoying to long range pass shooting. With these �Bad Boys� I just use a Modified (0.020� constriction) and Improved Modified (0.025� constriction) chokes out of my o/u.

SAk..,

yeah, learning curve. Used Win. 3" Steel BBs for geese in a cut field and it worked great. Same load for ducks over decoys and pass shooting, well just sucked.

The other thing is, I used my O/U and wound up with a very bruised shoulder. Looking for a cheap auto - a boat gun - as it's very hard to keep a gun looking nice in a friggin duck boat.

O

Cheap auto! What did you have in mind.

Cheers,

Both Dicks and GanderMnt sell a Stoger knockoff of the Benelli. dern near identical and it sells for $499. Berretta owns Benelli and Stoger both.

Story i heard was Stoger was having it made in Turkey so when Baretta bought Stoger out the auto was so good and at such a good price point they kept it.

And I got nearly a year so i'll cruise the gun shops for a decent used 'something' in the mean time.

dw

gno..,

Thanks for the info. I would like to use my grandfather's duck gun and may yet. It's gonna need a new choke system and high dollar ammo. Prolly do it just for the sake of nostalgia. I take my dad's old Lefever out squirrel hunting opening day every year and his deer rifle every opener.

But I shoot a lot, and will prolly come up with a more modern system for routine waterfowl hunting. You are a dedicated man.

O

I have traded for a 26 solid steel ribbed ,Polly choked A5 Belguim barrell with three astericks on barrell (so was full before polly choked). Will use it to shoot steel with,have 32.00 in the deal!

Bob

Hi Bobbyjack,

I think the A5 barrel had a Modified choke if it was stamped with three asterix (***). I had a similar barrel (27-1/2") with a Modified choke. I sent this away and had Briley install their S-1 "thin-wall" series VX chokes.