Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Why do gun and cartridge makers push their ideas on us instead of giving us what we want?

Why do companies like Ruger, Remington, Winchester, Hornady, etc., give up or mis-market guns and cartridges that are proven performers but then try to sell us something else that is no better?

The 6.5 Creedmore, 300RUM & 375 RUM cartridges, 30TC, RCM cartridges, Model 7 guns with 22-24inch barrels, 17MachII, 17HRM, 204 ruger are just a few examples of which I speak. But, try to get a 260 Remington, 6.5x55, 300 Savage, or any previously chambered catridge in a production gun and they laugh at you.

Remington should have put a 1-8" twist in the 260 from the start and put it in guns that would take advantage of it's abilities. If Ruger sells rifles to Europe they should sell them here too. Hornady dreams up cartridges that fill no real need instead of making more loads for existing cartridges.

It just doesn't make sense to me. If Savage can make me a model 10 in 250 Savage for a small fee, why can't others? If the 260 is winning 1000 yd matches in gun with a 1-8" twist, why can't I buy a factory rifle and match ammo for it? If Ruger sells 6.5x55 Hawkeyes to Europeand Austrailia, why can't I buy one in the USA?

And the gun industry wonders why they have the issues they do.

I think it's a case of bean counters and lawyers running the show instead of gun guy's.

I think that is a very good question. The same is true with vehicles. Rather than asking what we want, they produce what they want to and then tell us that it is what we want. The idea of the choices being "market-driven" is completely invalid when it is based on purchases of what is available rather than on what is desired.

Them and the Marketing types who may or may not be shooters/hunters but who think they can sell cow manure to a dairy farmer with the right hype.

Same thing if you walk into a gunshop & ask for something they don't have , they are going to tell you that you don't really want that , you want this (which of course they have in stock)

Mike

You mean like this?

I have a 1-8" twist .260 Rem - a stock Ruger M77 MkII. Love it!

First, I'll comment on some things in your post.

The fact is that very few shooters want a .300 Savage. Instead they'll buy a .308, which will do anything a .300 Savage will and some things it won't. Even .260's and 6.5x55's have a limited appeal, the reason they only appear now and then in limited runs. No rifle company is going to standardize a chambering that doesn't sell. Otherwise they end up with a warehouse full of unsold rifles.

The rifle chamberings that sell, decade after decade, are .223 Rem., .22-250 Rem., .243 Win., .25-06 Rem., .270 Win., 7mm Rem. Magnum, .30-30 Win. .308 Win., .30-06, .300 Win. Magnum, .338 Win. Magnum and .375 H&H. These sell because they cover about every known centerfire situation.

Yeah, there will always be a few people who want a .300 Savage because of nostalgia, or believe the .260 is somehow vastly superior to the .25-06 or .270, but most shooters couldn't care less. And the few shooters that really do want something else usually get a rebarrel job, or buy a used rifle.

On other hand, if the factories depending totally on hunters who buy rifles in the standard chamberings they'd probably go broke. So they introduce new cartridges, hoping that some will catch on enough to sell thousands of new rifles. This happens now and then. In the past decade the .300 WSM, .204 Ruger and .17 HMR have proven to be huge successes, and are pretty much standard cartridges now.

You may not have any use for the .17 HMR or .204 Ruger, but tens of thousands of other shooters really like them, including me. I am generally a skeptic about new rounds myself, and generally wait a year or two to see if a new wonder-round sticks around before trying one. When the .17 and .204 kept growing in popularity, I tried them--and found that they do fill a real niche that nothing else formerly did. That is not true of the .260 Remington or the .300 Savage, no matter how much you may personally like them--and I have owned and hunted with several .300 Savages and a 1-8 twist .260.

Now, many companies apparently do totally separate the R&D and marketing divisions. Two major companies introduced new over-under 12-gauge shotguns within the past decade or so. They were both nice shotguns, but didn't cost less than any other O/U on the market, and both weighed around eight pounds. Anybody with a lick of sense could have seen the aging of the hunting population and the present demand for lighter shotguns, but not these two companies.

In other words, the world did not want another 8-pound 12-gauge over-under, yet the R&D departments of both companies spent lots of money developing exactly that--then turned the guns over to the marketing department, which didn't have a clue how to sell a nice new shotgun that really didn't differ in any major way from hundreds of thousands of used shotguns already on the market.

Winchester also didn't listen to its customers (and even some gun writers) when it introduced most of its other short magnums. The .270 WSM was obvious, and became a reasonable success, but the other two WSM's many hunters wanted were a .25 and a .338. Instead Winchester brought out the .25 WSSM (which didn't do anything the .25-06 didn't do) and the .325 WSM (which didn't do anything the .300 WSM didn't do). Both rounds fell pretty much flat on their faces. This was because the R&D people didn't to actual shooters.

So, yeah, there often is a "listening" problem. But the major companies are not going to make .260 Remingtons and .300 Savages when there are already thousands of rifles in those chamberings already on the used market, plenty to satisfy the few shooters who actually want one.

John,

Do you have a gopher field that we could go shoot out of a truck. I am recovering from knee surgery and need to get out of the house. I have a new Kimber 22 and Pre-war model 70 22 Hornet that are begging to get out...Help!

Shrapnel

My issue is when they take away what we want� case in point the .480 Ruger.

Ruger has quit chambering a revolver for a cartridge which bears their name� and they helped develop.

How much confidence can you have for other cartridges they develop?

I�m a traditional kinda guy and the only �odd� rounds I bought are the 450 Marlin and the 480 Ruger� At least Marlin has stuck by their guns (so to speak).

The odd thing is the 480R is a fantastic round� someone missed the boat there

Anyone who makes these posts ever think that maybe, just maybe, they are the odd ones? Just asking.

Before you go trying to slam me know my most used rifles are in .257 Roberts and 8x57IS. I know I wanted odd stuff and went and built them the way I wanted. It's not hard to do at all. I haven't spent a minute complaining that Winchester didn't make an 8x57 featherweight in stainless and carbon fiber with a 1 in 9.5" twisted 23.5" barrel. I'm just saying...

I must say, it would be nice to have one of them make LH's in something other than .270, 30-06, and 300WM -- although I don't expect it to happen.

Hell, at this point, it'd be nice to be able to get a STD and a Magnum boltface with any regularity.

5-6 years ago, Remington made a SS LH. I bought several -- right before they discontinued them.

Last year Ruger made Hawkeyes in SS LH. I bought several -- right before they discontinued them.

Maybe 5-6 years from now, another company will make a run of LH SS but to be sure, they'll make one (and only one) run of 30-06 & 300 WM.

As opposed to most rifle makers, Ruger imo, listens more to the shooting public than any other maker. For now, Ruger offers the 260 in their laminated handy compact version according to their site.

Decisions to market which cartridges, chambered in which rifles and marketed in which countries, or in which areas within N/A, are usually based on what the past successful sales trends are. You just don`t want to make something and then throw against a wall and then see if it sticks without some past trends, demands to fill a need and marketing figures. I think that Ruger has on on-going "contact the ceo" program to voice opinions by e/mail. Unfortunately, it takes time to implement what we want from the makers.

Sounds to me like you`d like to see more 6.5mm offerings! I can`t blame ya there!

Rules, regulations, and possible marketing restrictions to other countries may impede some cartridge overseas offerings.

It pretty much boils down to future marketability, profitability and the product demand.

As far as your above list goes? Many prefer other calibers besides the 6.5s and want a more powerful 30 than a 300 Savage for hunting.

Like them or dislike them, the 300 RUM from Remy has been a great seller, the 300-338 RCM Hawkeyes from Ruger are up and coming, the 204 Ruger is a great seller and the 17s are popular as well. Other innovations from Hornady and Ruger like the 375 Ruger, literally blasted off the launching pad. And the newer 416 Ruger is well on its way too. It remains to be seen imo, where the the 6.5 Creedmore and 30TC will go in the future.

I do believe and hope that we`ll see more of a variety in 260 offerings from Ruger in the future.

But on the other hand and until announced, we really don`t know what`s going on behind the scenes within Ruger or even Remington.

If you run a business dealing in any product, you follow the marketing demands for new products and the demands for the re-newal of the older ones, which in turn lead to sales, which again in turn leads to more profits.

The problem with all corporations is that they subdivide authority which eliminates accountability.

That is why Bill Ruger and Roy Weatherby to some degree (He has some investors) did so well. All decisions were based on the use of their own money.

JW

Were I running a firearms company, I would probably run it into bankruptcy in short order. The reason? I would take all of the budget for R&D and most of the money from marketing and spend it on improved manufacturing, improved materials, and, especially, on vastly improved quality control. Forget introducing new stuff; concentrate on making what you make better.

Of course no company will do this because the firearms buying public is willing to buy the less-than-stellar products that are produced and then spend up to several hundred dollars making the gun right. That or shoot it the way it is and grind their teeth while doing so.

I have also thought that a great many gun buyers are not very discerning and don't know and/or don't care how a really good firearm looks, feels, works and shoots. And the firearms manufacturers know this.

RS

If decade after decade, they make .223 Rem., .22-250 Rem., .243 Win., .25-06 Rem., .270 Win., 7mm Rem. Magnum, .30-30 Win. .308 Win., .30-06, .300 Win. Magnum, .338 Win. Magnum and .375 H&H then why aren't they cheaper, available in left hand, and easily found in any gun shop? If these are the standards they should be capitalizing on these models sent they cover everything we could possibly want? I believe the equipment used to produce these rifles should be pay for by now.

Just seems silly to me that they gave up on the 260 Rem and came out with the 6.5 Creedmore. The 30 TC, in handloads, is really no better than a 300 Savage.

So why spend the dollars in R&D to come up with new rounds that offer nothing? I know, they want to sell something new to the crowd that needs to have the latest and greatest.

Seems like the Remington Classic line sold pretty good when they were offered in obsolete rounds, so why cant the manufacturers continue this? They wont make a mint off of it, but they would sell rifles.

Shrapnel,

I might in a little while. A local friend's relatives own a ranch that is being eaten up, and we have been given the contact info. Haven't done so yet but hope to soon. It might work out.

The other place I have been shooting is near Great Falls, a long way for you--and even for me!

Day Packer and Hawk driver,
You summed it up pretty well in my opinion, and RipSnort is correct too. Make the products better at a fair price and they will sell guns and ammo. Remington is a perfect example of a gun MGF who charges a fortune for it's guns and forgets quality control. My local 'smith fixed the trigger in my 750 carbine and now it's smooth a crisp like a timmney. He said the sear was ground on an ANGLE and not even square.

Ruger frost me because they WON'T sell guns for the European market here. If they can make a All-Weather Hawkeye for sale in Europe, they should be selling it here too. Where is the added cost to sell a gun domestically that they are selling overseas? It's plain stupid to NOT sell them Stateside if I or anyone else wants to buy one.

I wonder how much a Ruger, Winny or Rem would cost if they made limited runs(say 500 units) in calibers like 300 Sav, 7X57, 35 Whelen,etc??
Seems like there would be some market for 'limited editions' at least??