Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Single Shots How safe is a loaded B78 or 1885 ?

Following assorted replies to a related topic that I posted recently I�m seeking verification regarding the safe handling of a loaded Browning B78. Not having a B78 owner�s manual I sourced the following relevant data from a Browning 1885 manual :

After loading the rifle, when shooting is not imminent, the correct position of the hammer is at half-cock, from which you need only thumb the hammer back to the full-cock position to prepare the rifle for firing. The half-cock notch on the hammer is a safety feature designed to protect against accidental discharge of the rifle in the event the hammer slips from the thumb while the rifle is been cocked. The half-cocked position should be used for handling and storage � any time that the rifle is not actually being fired. It is important to note that the Model 1885 has an inertia sear which prevents the hammer from going to the dropped position unless the trigger is pulled.

I was curious about whether the short distance travelled by the half-cocked hammer and the apparent minimal striking force are in fact enough to �send a projectile into orbit�. Accordingly, I performed a simple test which involved loading a primed EMPTY case into the chamber and then pulling the trigger. Not surprisingly � BANG !!

Accordingly, I would very much appreciate it if other reloading B78 and 1885 owners could verify the matter by duplicating the test and then reporting back your results - for the safety benefit of all such firearm owners.

Note, if such results are similar to mine then one could argue that the only absolutely reliable safe way of hunting with a B78 / 1885 is with an UNLOADED chamber � just pray you don�t have a close encounter with an aggressive predator in the process !

I look forward to your replies, Ross.

The rifle WILL NOT fire off 1/2 cock unless it is defective EOS

"It is important to note that the Model 1885 has an inertia sear which prevents the hammer from going to the dropped position unless the trigger is pulled."

Does this not imply that the hammer will drop from the half-cocked position when the hammer's pulled ?
As stated, physically test it and report back your findings !

My 1885 wouldn't fire at half cock if ya hooked the trigger up to a bulldozer. I don't have any trepidation about its safety in such a mode.

The 1885 trigger is a lot different than the one in the 78 and actually a bit safer. I don't know exactly how it works, but the inertial sear part of the mechanism prevents the hammer from going past the half cock position unless the hammer is at full cock and you pull the trigger. You can't lower the hammer to the firing pin and if your thumb slips while part way down it still stops at half cock. I tried it when I first read about it and wondered how it worked, but never took one apart to see. That problem of slipping while lowering the hammer has always been the Achilles heel of the half cock safety.

No firearm should drop the hammer when you pull the trigger from the half cock position. That defeats the idea of a safety.

Jerry

I own two 1885s and have owned too many B78s to remember as well as real high/low walls. NONE would fire off 1/2 cock notch.(noe will any Hammer gun unless it's broke. EOS

Jerry and Oldman1942, sincere thanks for your input. It would appear that the original owner/s of my old B78 High Wall had tampered with the trigger / hammer assembly - resulting in the half-cock position being no longer SAFE for carrying the rifle in a loaded state. Note, I consciously questioned the associated safety aspect of this happening when I first bought the rifle but, correct me if I�m wrong, the following statement from the 1885 manual may be considered to be ambiguous as it does not specifically identify whether the hammer drops from the full or half-cocked position, to the fired position, when the trigger�s pulled :

�It is important to note that the Model 1885 has an inertia sear which prevents the hammer from going to the dropped position unless the trigger is pulled�.

Bearing in mind that this could be interpreted from the half-cocked position I accepted the fact that my B78 was functioning properly. However, I was fearful that a hammer �accidently� dropped from the half-cocked position would have enough striking force to fire off a primer � as verified by my recent test. Accordingly, I initially elected to carry the loaded rifle with the hammer in the fired position � my reasoning being that the hammer spur was �safely� tucked away under the scope and thus unlikely to be ever accidently jolted hard enough to similarly fire off a primer.


Note, when the chamber�s EMPTY the hammer sits flush against the falling block � no doubt causing the sprung firing pin to protrude out the other side into the empty chamber. In contrast, when the chamber�s LOADED, the sprung firing pin causes the hammer to sit about 1mm out from the block � suggesting that the point of the firing pin is lightly resting against the primer.
This begs the question � how much force does a hammer in the dropped position need to fire off the primer ? Well, I carried out the following experiment today : I chambered a primed EMPTY case, carefully lowered the hammer until it was in the fired or dropped position, then I firmly struck the hammer spur several times with a wooden dowel � resulting in only a slight indent in the primer. I then chambered another primed EMPTY case, placed one end of the dowel against the spur and then similarly struck the other end with a small carpenter�s hammer � BANG !

In their wisdom, Browning have apparently modified the later 1885 model to be SAFER when carrying a loaded rifle. However, I wonder how many other B78�s have had a �trigger adjustment� and, like mine, are now similarly UNSAFE when the hammer�s in the half-cocked position !?

In conclusion, I�m now inclined to only load my old B78 when potential game are encountered.
Cheers, Ross.

Or you could get it fixed by Wyoming Armory in Cody WY.

I had a Browning 1885 that had a malfunction in which the inertia sear worked a bit too effectively...it would not fire from half cock, but it wouldn't fire from full cock either. Browning fixed it but my enthusiasm for the rifle had evaporated.

Oldman1942, thanks for your recommendation but I'm afraid Wyoming Armory in Cody WY is just a little too far from where I live - Sydney, Australia ! By all accounts it does appear that my old B78 (manufactured in 1978) has a defective 'safe half-cock position' as the hammer definitely should NOT fall to the fired position when the trigger's pulled. I don't honestly know whether the relevant 'trigger locking mechanism' has worn due to extensive usage by the previous owner/s or if its being made inoperative by a botched trigger adjustment in the past. Regardless, I've organised a competent Gunsmith to investigate, and hopefully fix, the matter in the near future.
Ross.

A big hearty thanks to whoever posted the following B78 instructional extract (randomly sourced and filed several years ago, from an unknown forum, when I first bought my rifle) :

�There are two screws on the trigger itself, the rear one is over travel and the front one controls the position of the connector bar, which trips the sear, which lets go of the hammer. The pull weight adjustment is in a hole in the receiver itself. The pull weight adjustment takes a 1/16 allen wrench, but the others require a 1.5mm. If the connector rests too far from the sear, it misses it when the trigger is pulled. If it�s too close the whole arrangement becomes inoperative. There is a critical point where things function. I even managed to get into a place where the trigger would trip from half cock ! In order to adjust the trigger take up, you need to adjust the large blued screw with the two little holes in it. Turn it clockwise and it should take up some of the slack, however you usually can�t get rid of all of it.�

Accordingly, I decided to minutely adjust ONLY the trigger�s connector bar sear engagement screw and, as mentioned above, I soon fortunately managed to find the critical point where the hammer persistently no longer falls to the fired position, from the half-cock position, when the trigger�s pulled. In turn, I�m an extremely grateful and happy B78 owner !

In hindsight, I�m questioning the knowledge, competency and integrity of the Gunsmith I recently rang regarding my �faulty� B78 as he was notably unsure as to what the cause of the problem might be. In reality � a very simple minute turn of an easily accessible screw !

Where relevant, I hope others might also benefit from the various adjustment procedures mentioned in the extract.
Cheers, Ross.