Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Winchester Model 21 ?

There is no doubt in my mind that the Winchester 21 is a very strong gun that will last several lifetimes and handle much more shooting than other high grade shotguns.

However, to me, this is a non-issue as the "typical" shooter will never run hundreds-of-thousands of rounds through any "hunting" gun. A dedicated skeet shooter or a British shooter who regularly hunts driven game "might" eventualy shoot a shotgun loose......most shooters will not put even 100,000 shots through a shotgun in 50 years.

The Model 21 is very strong, but that is also why I've never liked them. They are too heavy and boxy to ever be truely graceful. It's a flaw of the boxlock design.....not a "Winchester" problem. No boxlock shotgun can ever be as trim and graceful as even a lower grade sidelock. Winchester built the 21 to be strong, simple and reliable......then tried to "guild the lilly" with showy wood and engraving and inlays. That's a loosing stratagy.

Even the most graceful of the boxlocks, the Parker and A.H. Fox, fall short of the grace and beauty of sidelocks like the L.C. Smith and Holland & Holland. I find that the very low grade sidelocks like the Crescent Arms models (which were working-man's guns) are better looking and feel/shoot better for me than even a $5,000 boxlock.

May be just me, but a high-grade boxlock is like saying a high-class fat girl. You can dress her in beautiful clothes, fix her hair, slather on the make-up and cover her with sparkly jewelry.......and you still have a fat girl underneith it all.

The way you guys are describing the M21, I have a 16ga Stevens 5100 that is every bit the gun and only cost me $325 in like-new condition. I was always under the impression that the M21 was something "special." I remember drooling over the pictures in the 1960s color catalogs showing the "M21 Grand American" guns and thinking they must be the best of the best. Live and learn, I guess.

"I remember drooling over the pictures in the 1960s color catalogs showing the "M21 Grand American""

I still drool over them. The pictures are as close as I will ever come to one, though, but it doesn't cost anything to dream.

Ever seen pictures of the Grand Royal?

Hammer,

My Model 21 is a twelve gauge, two barrel set with single trigger and straight grip stock. It was built in 1935 according to the Cody letter. The 26" barrels are Sk1 & Sk2, the 30" are M & F.

I've had this gun a bit over three years. I've used it to shoot skeet, trap, sporting clays, five stand and helice. I've also used it for a bit of dove hunting and I've used it a number of times on pen raised quail and pheasant hunts. I've even shot a few ducks with it with soft non-toxic ammo.

The gun is, in my opinion, good looking and I have been pleased with the scores I have been able to shoot with it and the way I have shot it in the field. I particularly enjoy shooting this shotgun at sporting clays and five stand and upland hunting.

I have really enjoyed owning and shooting this shotgun. If you get a chance to shoot one give it a try.

Rick,

Boxlocks are inherently lighter guns than sidelocks. But...and granted...they don't have the "grace" of a sidelock.

A round action boxlock is about as light as a SXS can be made.

Big Redhead, the Steven's 5100 may well have been the most shotgun for the money in the 1950-1960's. Reasonable grace and balance for a great price.....and tough as hell.

I have a Parker 12 bore built in 1901with 30" IC and Full barrels. While I would agree it's no Winchester M-21 it is nicely finished and the origional stock sorta fits me. I take it out to shoot 5 stand clays at least once a month.

The Parker was a gift so my $$$ investment is without bias.

Doc

You want to get at the working parts-or show off the working parts-a sidelock wins. You want to have a panel for some scratching a sidelock wins. However, both a boxlock and sidelock can be made to balance and handle equally well.

The inletting on a sidelock has more of a tendency to cause stock cracks if not done to perfection.

The 21 mechanically is an excellent gun and built like a tank. I think they're horribly over-priced and I think the aesthetic inspiration for the receiver was a 2x4. I'd take one if it was given to me, but if I were parting with my hard earned cash, I could find something as good or better for a good deal less cash. But having something with the Winchester stamp means something to a lot of people.

Plain and simple the Model 21 was the best of America. This is why they will continue to be a good investment. One that not only will appreciate over time, but will remain useful for several lifetimes.

I'll probably ruffle some feathers but I am not an real advocate of the 21. The loosest functioning double I've seen was a 21 but I will say right out that the owner had no clue about lubricating and maintaining the gun. He caused it's problems through ignorance. The gun would rattle when shook but still took a lot of ducks despite it's condition. That said, if he would have sold it I would have bought it and had it repaired. The weight and balance made it a great waterfowl gun. They are relatively heavy compared to some other guns. The Foxes were the solidest American made box locks in my exposure to the breed. They employed the best of design combined with good handling. I still shoot a Sterlingworth and it's as tight as a drum after a lot of use. The Parkers were lively and lovely with great balance but not as strong as the Foxes and a lot of them came off the face. I have had shooting little exposure to L.C. Smiths of any grade. Relatively few of them made it to Canada it seems. I've restocked a couple and for the most part they seemed pretty solid but they were a different action type. In the end they were all great guns but the typical North American shooter did not have them maintained to the same standards that an English owner of a an H & H or Purdey or, whatever would have done.

My 30"Parker DH and 28" Win 21(Mr.Eng's) both weigh 7lb.8 oz.as you can see on their order form's, and handle like wand's.In fact my 27" Win 23 "Custom" weigh's more than my 12ga. 21's!!! Don't know where the weight thing started with 21's because it's a crock of chit.People who say their heavy either read it somewhere or most likely never handled or owned one.Their built strong because of the steel's used(chrome-molybdenum)which has nothing to do with their weight. http://photobucket.com/sqweeler i5

I grew up reading O'Conner. I hit the ripe age of 14 in '51. I grew up on a farm in the rolling plains of central west Texas. Loved guns. My dream gun was a Winchester 21. You could order a field grade from the Ward's catalog for $325. I had handled the live models in our annual trek to Ft. Worth to sell cattle. I had my eye on the 16 ga. I had pestered Dad for some time about buying one. We finally made a deal involving several projects and a lot of goals, both on and off the farm. Good harvests, reasonable commodity prices, and meeting or exceeding all the projects/goals brought this close to a reality in '52. Dad said the 21 was a "GO." Stepping back just a bit, one could get a drivers license in Texas (population under 6 million at the time) at 14 under certain conditions. At 15, I was beginning to eye a brown haired/eyed girl that lived a few miles away. When Dad said yes, I began to have second thoughts. Maybe I needed a car worse than a shotgun? To make a long story short, Dad was an easy mark for the second car deal. At my age and wanting to go and do, plus the utility of a second vehicle around the farm, Dad readily swapped my longed for 21 purchase for a shared interest in a used vehicle. Story ending: A few years later I married the girl, and 55 years later in a couple of weeks, I still have her. My only regret is that I never had a 21! Nice shotguns, yes-21, no. I may have made the better deal after all. The mother of my three children is still fairly trim, attractive, pleasant and has indulged my gun habits for lo these many years. Do not tell her that I traded a shotgun for her!!!! jt

I have never had a Mo.21,but have always admired them.An older friend has one in 20 Ga. Skeet & Skeet that he lets me borrow for Grouse.I get more Grouse with that shotgun than any other I have ever used.Hoping it will be mine one day!!!

I have a model 21, 20 ga. Skeet with A carved wood. It's sleek and trim.

I like your story. I'm fond of my 21, but I think you made the right decision.

DF

Of all the "classic" American douldes, I like the Model 21 the least. It's true they are very strong and many came with very fine engraving and wood, but the basic design is too heavy and even more so, with little "grace". Someone mentioned that the inspiration for the Model 21 action must have been a 2X4.....and that's not far from wrong, just too blocky and squared off to ever be graceful.

To me, the Model 21 reminds me of a high grade Russian shotgun such as the Bakial. They are awkward, blocky, and heavy....but dead tough and will shoot "forever". All the high grade wood, engraving and gold inlay work in the world just can't hide the basic flaws of the Model 21. Someone else compared the model 21 to the Stevens 5100 and I think that's pretty close. The Winchester "might" be a bit better made, but if one were to add fine wood and a bit of engraving to the basic 5100.....it would be very good competition for the Model 21.....at half the price.

I admit I like the sidelock doubles much better than any boxlock. I grew up in a family of hunters who carried L.C Smiths, Lefevers and a few Crescent doubles and still love them. I'd rate them L.C Smith first, followed by the Lefever, Baker and finally the Crescent (which I think is a real "sleeper" among classic doubles....a "working man's double, but very well balanced and made).

Of the classic boxlocks, I'd rate the A.H. Fox as the equal to the Baker and Lefever sidelocks and the "best" of the boxlock actions. The Parker is a good gun, but very much over-rated. The Model 21 would rate next, primarily due to good wood and engraving.....NOT great design.

The J. Stevens 5100 and Ithaca doubles are very good "using" guns (I rate them just below the Model 21)....but not so nice to carry or look at.

The various shotguns from "across the water" are sometimes good too. Of course the British guns are very fine.....even though just a bit "delicate". Better made are the Italian and Spanish doubles In fact I consider the Spanish guns to be the "best buy" in the double field. Under-rated (and therefor cheaper), they are well balanced and strong in the better grades, and a very good choice (particularly the sidelock models).

The German guns are certainly strong, but like the Model 21, generally leave something to be desired as far as grace and light weight. The Russian guns are built to be used....not admired.

Don Criswell, a long-time southern California shotgun dealer/shooter and the technical consultant on Ned Schwing's M-21 book, told me that he put over 500,000 rounds through one of his M-21s and the only thing he replaced was the hinge pin.

Steven's 5100 & Crescent,my wife came down the hallway to find out why I've been laughing for 10 minutes.Thanks

sqweeler your not laughing alone!

Rick,

Model 21, Skeet 20 ga. Top gun in photo, close ups of checkering and butt stock below.

Pretty sleek, not too clunky...

DF