Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Am I crazy? Do I really want a 300rum, or a 338rum

which one do I choose? Looking for pros and cons of these two calibers.Will mostly be used for deer and black bear. Are either of these belted. How about accuracy, and bullet choices. In case your wondering why I want either of these, I'm a huge .30 cal fan, like tough bullets and a large wound channel. I really like this web site and value everyones opinion

Unless you've been around guns like these, I sugest you find someone who has one of these and shoot theirs a few times to be certain you really want one. The used gun racks are full of big guns that people bought, then decided that they were really not all the fun to shoot.

My first comment about any RUM for deer and black bear, is any such round is completely unnessesary. If you are a huge 30 cal fan, I'g guess you have either an 06 or 308 Win in the closet somewhere, if not, that is where I would begin.

The first thing you need to remember or learn if you are new, is the faster you push a bullet (Fail Safes and X bullets exempt from this) the less penetration you will see, so by "large Wound Channel", I suppose you mean a long deep hole in the animal. You get a longer and deeper hole with a 30-06 that you will with a 300 RUM. Infact, few bullets will shoot so deep into a critter than a good premium 180gr bullet fired at 2500-2700fps. This puts you right in the 308 Win and 30-06 range. A 180gr Partition at 2600fps (for example, not a magic number) will bust right through any deer or black bear and break bone, destroy flesh and damage organs like few other bullets, and do it with a third the recoil of a 300 RUM. The same 180gr Partition at 3300fps will kill too, but it is my guess based on experience and expectaions of bullets, that it will penetrate less, bloodshot more meat and give chances to fail if large bone is hit.

One question one needs to ask is not: What a bullet will do to the animal?, but rather, What the animal and velocity will do to the bullet?. Velocity adds friction and resistance is higher, even in the air before you hit the beast...it is a fact that the faster you push the bullet, the faster it slows down in air and the faster you try to force a bullet through game, the faster it will slow down and the more likely it will give fits and possible failer. The only exception is Barnes X bullets and Fail Safes. Then I suppose it is all up to you on how much recoil, boom and ringing ears you want to live through just to shoot a Deer or Black bear.

CM

Am I crazy? Hmmm. maybe
Do I really want a 300rum, or a 338rum ? Probably
which one do I choose? 300
Looking for pros and cons of these two calibers.Will mostly be used for deer and black bear. Both are clearly overkill, the 338 more so and both will kick like #%&*.
Are either of these belted. No
How about accuracy, I can't say I've not shot either
and bullet choices. Extraordinay for the 300 and adequate for the 338.

If your use is for nothing larger than deer or black bear, it is hard to justify anything heavier than a 7mm Rem mag or it's equivelent, the dependable old 30-06. That does not keep the true rifle looney from wanting something newer and bigger.

I personally find it hard to shoot anything heavier than a 300 Win Mag enough to become truly proficient with it, due to recoil. That said, I still intend to have a 300 Dakota built, it is very comparable to a 300 Wea. It is shorter though and doesn't have the belt.

You comment that you like to see a large wound channel and a tough bullet. The wound channel left by a 165 gr balistic tip from a 30-06 at 2900 fps mv on medium to large mule deer has never failed to impress me, even at 300 yd plus.

The most important consideration when buying a new rifle is:
What will you be satisfied with?
I choose not to deal with the increased recoil and powder consumption of the Ultramags. That is my choice. If you feel that you will be satisfied with nothing less than an ultramag, by all means buy one. There is nothing worse than carrying a rifle in the field and wishing one had gone ahead and gotten a different one.
I might suggest though, if you are unfamiliar with shooting the heavier middle caliber magnums, that you find an aquaitance who owns one and ask to shoot it. This will give you an idea as to the recoil level of these rifles.

I have found both to be very accurate. However neither one is
my choice for deer and black bear. The 300 is a fine long range rifle for elk and 338 fits that bill and has the horsepower
for big bears and other large critters but they are not for
the meek. The price of that horsepower is recoil.

If you HAVE to have a magnum, make it a 300 Win or 300WSM. Both will make enough bloodshot meat to keep you happy for months with Ballistic Tips.

Otherwise a nice lightweight 308 (or 30-06) will give you enough jolt on your end to simulate the 300 boooomers and not tear up quite so much meat with the Ballistic Tips (shouldn't be much more than a softball size exit wound.

Just for a little comparative recoil data, in an 8.5 pound rifle, here's some comparisons:

30-06/180gr/2800 fps: 21 ft-lbs at 12 fps.

300RUM/200gr/3100fps: 41 ft-lbs at 17 fps.

338RUM/250gr/2950fps: 49 ft-lbs at 19 fps.

Only you can know how much you are comfortable with.

The first time I shot my 300RUM I figured this rifle is going to get sold or traded off. That was one year,a few hundred rounds, one black bear, two deer, and a bull elk ago. The recoil was pretty rough at first but now I can shoot 30 rounds from the bench without a bruised and sore shoulder. The 200gr. accubond is a hoot to clober a 130lb. blacktail with. My RUM is a REm 700 SS. Syth.I bedded the action, floated the bbl, and litened the triger up. The more I shoot the better the groups are getting so I know the weak link in the accuracey is me and thats all I expect out of a cartridge/rifle. I've decided to skip the 338RUM and am keeping my eyes peeled for a 375RUM to play with.

Jamie

Funny you should ask this question. I am in the process of making one as this is written.

Have you owned a 300 win mag, 338 win mag or maybe a 300 weatherby? If you have perhaps you are ready to make the move.

If not you are in for a rude awakening. The odds are against your liking this level of recoil. There is a way around it, a muzzle brake. This opens up another can of worms. Excessive noise traded for excessive recoil.

I had a chance to shoot Rick Smith's 300 rum this last Nov and it had a VAIS brake. Would have never believed it could be as quiet as it was. Have heard KDFs and a few others that were unbearable by comparison.

FYI the 300 RUM was an evolutionary event for me. !0 yrs after owning a 300 winny, a 338 and a 375 taylor I want a longer distance elk rifle with authority at 300 plus yds.

I agree with one of the other posters that you must try one before you buy one.

I own the .338RUM,I add a muzzle break,without it the rifle kicks too much for me.I use Leupold mounts,the front base didnt stay tight,I have to glue it.Try this one before buying one.

Can they be Accurate?





200 yard group. Yes they can be.

Will they work for Elk?



Yup, this one was quite a ways away, some would say to far but 1 shot dropped him. I wouldn't have tried with a lesser gun.........DJ

Combineman's info is right on. Do what he suggests; find someone who has either (or both) and shoot them a couple times to see how you like them.

I've had a number of customers who felt they had to have one of these beasts and most have either sold them or had me install a brake.

I don't mind recoil all that much, but I'm more comfortable with a .375 H&H than I am with a .300RUM.. You will also find that you'll shoot a lesser rifle more accurately than you will a huge powerhouse. All that power's wasted if it doesn't get to the right spot.

A good .300 WM is all you need, and the 30-06 will do a fine job also.

I really love the 338Ultra.

It is a fantastic cartridge,IMHO...................

Creepingdeath,

I have both and for what its worth here are my experiences. I have used the .300ultra both as a hunting round and in competition for about 4 years. As a hunting round it has a tremendous potential but there are surley trade offs. First the recoil is very heavy and sharp, especially with 200 gr. bullets (whichI feel are the best for this cartridge) The round needs at least a 26" barrel or its a .300 WBY. If you add a brake you have at least 28" of BBL to deal with. Wont fit into most scabbards or guncases. W/O the brake you better have a good recoil pad! The stock remington pad is awful. If you use a large heavy scope, ie 6.5X20 or 4.5X14 you should have tactical style mounts or the scope will slide forward in recoil. Muzzle blast with a brake is something to behold! Depending on the type of hunting you do all this amounts to a 10 or 11lb rifle. For me it was just a bit much to lug around for the amount of walking and back packing I do. It is accurate and hits hard..make no mistake about that. I had two hunting rifles and still have the lighter of the two. 700 LH, Hart # 4 BBL, vias brake, & Borden rimrock stock. Its about 9 1/2lbs. My competition rifle has a bat action and 32" Krieger BBL. I shoot 240 gr. Sierra MK @ about 2800. It is very accurate, but at 1000+ rounds the throat is burnt black and soon will not be competitive. For most of my hunting I have gone to a standard .300 win mag. I won a .338 ultra and have put about 50 rds through it. Recoil is pretty heavy though not as sharp as the .300. I believe this cartridge would work ok with a 24"BBL so it may make a more portable package..but the recoil will be rough. To sum it up they are specialized rounds that perform well but at a price of portability, recoil, barrel wear, and muzzle blast. By the way if you are sill intrested I have several medium weight barrels with brakes for sale that are in excellent condition if you have intrest.

Lefty

combineman, I don"t doubt your knowledge for I am no expert on guns, bullets,ballistics etc. But if what you say is true how is it that the experts at Hunting mag. will recomend the 7mm rem mag with 160 gr bullets or bigger for grizzly bear, but they don"t recomend the 7mm-08 with the same dia. bullet and slower velocity for grizzly? I am not trying to insult your intellengce, the way that I understand the info I"ve read is that velocity is energy and the faster the bullet the more energy it is capable of , dosen"t that translate into deeper penetration? Also I guess that what I meant buy a bigger wound channel is that a bigger dia. bullet leaves a bigger wound channel. I have shot ballistic tip bullets in the past with terrible results. In my opinuion they are unreliable bombs and would not recomend them to my worst enemy. Now I am totally confused...

Leftycarbon Hi;" 4.5X14 scope you should have tactical style mounts";I have problem with .338 RUM Leupold mounts,which tactical mounts should be a good choice..

Thx for the post creepingdeath,
All shooters seem to have different beleifs about terminal ballistics. I have never bought into the "bullet energy" thing. I tend to beleive bullets kill animals through trauma to tissue and organ and damage to tissue and organ...not energy or shock. I disagree that higher velocity will produce deeper penetration. It is a matter of Physics. The more you increase resistance (higher vel. will produce higher resistance, both in the air and in the animal), the faster momentum becomes arrested and the bullet slows and stops.

I have seen testing on this first hand with both handguns and rifles, not by reading about it, but in living, up close testing.

Why certain "experts" recomend this gun or that bullet or this idea or that and blah blah blah blah.....I have a feeling lies more to do with writing things that make readers happy. Fortunalty, there are indeed some real experts out there and some of them do write.

When someone recomends a 160gr bullet from a 7mmRem Mag as minimum for Grizzly, I wonder wherein his expertise originates. I have never hunted grizz as I live in Idaho but hope one day to. I do feel that writers (experts if you will) have to come up with stuff to write about every month and for the most part, editors make them write stuff that makes everyone happy and pisses nobody off.
I think they pull info from the air cause they have to say something.

I will guarentee that a 160gr bullet from a 7mm-08 will out penetrate a 160gr bullet from a 7mag if one loads to appropriate velocities. There is a diminishing return on both minimum velocities and max velocities where you begin to loose.

If I were to go grizz hunting, I would not choose either a 7mm-08 or a 7mm Mag. Like you, I like 30 cal bullets or bigger. I own 30 cal rifles from 30-30 to 300 Weatherby. I love my 300 Weatherby but feel my 300 H&H is a bit slower, hence a better killer than the Weatherby, and my 30-06's (own 4 of them) seem to kill better than the 300 H&H and my 308 Winchesters seem to down game everybit as effective and with seemenly deeper penetration than the 06's. A 30 cal bullet is a 30 cal bullet. You can drive it at 2400fps or or 3400fps, you still have a 30 cal bullet. I feel that Elmer Keith was pretty well right on....if you want more killing power, you get a bigger bullet. It works in handguns and rifles. I will take my 45 Colt up against any 454 Casul anyday for penetration.

I'll do the same with my 30-06 against any 300 RUM.

CM

Let me respond to a couple of your questions.
First, a higher energy number does not mean deeper penetration unless you are shooting a solid. Higher impact velocity causes any bullet other than a solid to become more frangible. They mushroom to a larger diameter and shed more material into the surrounding tissue causing a larger more destructive wound channel, but less penetration.
This is true of even X-bullets and Failsafes, at high enough velocities they may even shed petals, though they usually just open to a greater diameter.
Second, I have never lost a mule deer after detonating a balistic tip bomb in the heart lung cavity even when I had to shoot through the ham to get there.
Be sure that the balistic tip you are using is meant for big game. Many of the light for caliber balistic tips are meant as varmint bullets. They are meant to explode inside a prairie dog or rock chuck. These varmint bullets may fail to penetrate to the vitals of a deer or bear.
On the other hand the 30 cal 165 gr bal tip is perfectly suited to deer when fired at less than 3000 fps and the 30 cal 180 gr bal tip is often recognized as a dependable elk bullet from a 30-06 or 308.

Extraordinay for the 300 and adequate for the 338.

Actually, about the same for both, since .33-caliber bullets start at 160 grains Barnes) and end at 300 grains (Woodleigh).

Ray,
You are correct concerning the range of weights available for each caliber, 30's run from 100 gr to 250 gr that I am aware of.
But I was referring to the sheer number of different bullets available from the manufacturers in 30 cal, many of which obviously would be ill suited to a 300 RUM.

leftycarbon, There's an easier way to solve your problem with sliding scopes etc. Instead of messing with Remingtons, just buy a Sako 75 and use the Optilock mounts. They don't slip with a Nightforce on a 338 Lapua or a 4-16 Swaro PH on a 300 RUM. They shoot quite well in the bargain..........DJ