Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting In defense of big rifles

I'll jump in too. I have used everything from the .223 to the 458 Win Mag on big game over the last 35 years. With good bullet placement they have all worked ok. The worst "failures" I have had was with a 358 Winchester and seals on the ice. At long range the bullets were not expanding. Jumping to 180 Hornady's solved that. With the .223 I found past 150 yards it was running out of steam but I never lost a caribou with it. Bullet placement is a key.

For a long time I argued in fact that a rifle with enough velocity to expand bullets quickly was preferable on game to one with a larger bore. I had amazing luck with a 6.5 Rem Mag on caribou. There was a Hooves in the air effect that was lacking with the sister carbine in 350 Rem Mag.

Then I discovered the 358 Norma Magnum. This gave both excellent speed, sectional density and bullet weight. Shooting into mud flats with various calibers confirmed that I had something special here. It simply blew the competition away, with amazing temporary and permanent "wound channels" in the clay like mud of my shooting range. The depth and width were lovely. It out-classed both smaller faster bores and bigger slower ones. Like baby bears porridge, it had a just right quality.

Moving into moose country has confirmed my selection. Combining the long range expansion and shocking effect of smaller calibers, the wider wound channel of a larger, slower bullets and excellent penetration; this rifle gives excellent confidence, kills quickly and is a comfort in Grizzly country (out my back door). I just don't carry anything else anymore. Other calibers work...this works better. A good medium is a wonder to behold.

As for the "guides" who don't like the Nosler Partition.... there is no better bullet in my experience. I have put down many dozens of animals with many different bullets and the NP still has my favourite combination of explosive expansion and excellent penetration. My good luck with .223 to .458 coincided with switching to the NP for the majority of loading. Excellent bullet.

This year's moose will be shot with a 375 H&H using either a 300 gr NP or a 300 gr Swift A-Frame somewhere in the 2400 fps ballpark. the mediums i've witnessed on game have been very effective to watch. the smaller bullets kill pretty well, but generally seem to be going like hell and at the shortish distances we have here do a bad job in terms of explosive wounds with resultant bloodshot meat.

Have a gunsmith friend who took a 358 Norma Mag and necked it up to 9.3 calling it the 366 Barbie (it's the wife's gun). says its quite effective.

Use enough cartridge and bullet to penetrate an animal and kill it out to any reasonable hunting range. Use a rifle that allows you to reliably place said bullet precisely regardless of conditions..

What's your bullet in the .358 Norma? I mostly loaded 250 Speers and Partitions, but thought long and hard about the 280 A-Frames.

To those that use the 45-70, 30-30 etc. on elk and it works for you I have no problem with that..You are apparantly a hunter and apply its use properly...I have seen it fail miserably by hunters and have some ugly films from its use, so suppose I got a bit on guard over its use..I blamed the gun for the hunters ignorance in these cases, thinking back it was their refusal to use follow up shots to get the famous one shot kill to prove the calibers effectiveness, ticked me off.

I realize if your capabilities are up to the chore then whatever caliber you choose will work..

I am not adament over what others use to hunt with as long as it works for them..In these discussions I do try to approach them with a practical point of view and that colides with some that use such calibers and that was not my intent..If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.:)

For myself, I like and use the .338 with 300 gr. Woodleighs in the very thick stuff I hunt elk in..If I hunt in the open country then I will use either my 300 H&H or 30-06 with 200 and 180 gr. Noslers respectively or perhaps my .338 with 210 Noslers at 3005 FPS...I don't think I need to make any excuses for that!!

In my early years of elk hunting I began with a 25-35 SRC and shot my first 4 or 5 elk with it and a few with the 30-30 and then the 250 Savage..all worked and my shots were all under 200 yards as I recall...Later went to the .270 and it worked well, but I did see some elk wounded with it by hunters who took going away shots in the dark timber, so I went to the 300 H&H the the 338-06 and later the .338 which instantly became my favorite caliber fo elk. Its a great elk round if you can handlel the recoil. If I hunt horseback, I will probably carry my Savage 99F in .308 or perhaps my Win. 95 in 30-06 with 220 gr. Noslers.I ain't likely to change my mind on my choices because someone on the internet tells me too, nor do I expect anyone else to do that. My head is made up.:)

I have used the 250 Speers. They penetrate o.k. but occasionally shed cores. Folks in the Yukon seem to have better luck with them than I have has although none have actually failed as the separation seems to come near the end of adequate travel. The Partitions in 225 or 250 are all I use now. They have been flawless with a fantastic combination of explosiveness and penetration. I am trying the Accubond but notice they have no better Ballistic Coefficient than the Partition. I have also used 300 grain Barnes Originals and they have been remarkably good. Down to 75 of them however and the partitions penetrate as well, hit as hard and range better.

Personally, I like big bore sizes(or mediums in the case of .358"). I have two 45-70s, a 35 Whelen, and two 50 cal muzzleloaders.

Shot several elk with the muzzleloaders, they ended pretty quick. One was a cow shot dead through the liver (yea I flinched or something), but she didn't go more than 75 yds or so before hitting the ground.

Have not taken any deer with the 45s or the 50s, but I have shot several with the Whelen (225 grain bullets)...they don't last long.

The elk rifle I use almost exclusively now is the muzzleloaders. Just too many hunters in the woods during rifle season. And during the early (September) muzzleload season, I have not had a problem getting within range of the open sighted gun. During rifle season, the elk are a lot more spooky and the extra range of a good high velocity round can certainly come in handy.

Swedish moose study - Denny

http://www.kifaruforums.net/archive/index.php/t-10343.html

Alaskan accuracy tesy: http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=huntingbulletin.hntbul8#cartridges

A note about the Alaskan study...

First, I agree completely with the author that �Big game is consistently, quickly, and humanely killed by accurate, precise placement of a well-constructed bullet in the vital heart-lung area.� Nothing beats the proper placement of a bullet constructed to meet the task at hand.

Second, I agree that a lack of practice and poor shooting skills are primary factors in wounding game.

On the other hand, I would caution anyone from concluding the author is suggesting that no one should use what he calls �a hard-kicking slobber-knocker magnum�. The well-prepared hunter is, by definition, capable of effectively using his/her weapon of choice � and there are many well-prepared hunters that choose what some would call �a hard-kicking slobber-knocker magnum�.

There is also a lot of misconception out there about how much some cartridges recoil. Full-power 7mm RM loads often recoil about the same as full-power .30-06 loads using bullets of similar Sectional Density (7mm/140g, .308�/165g or 7mm.160g, .308�/180g). In fact, the differences are often measured in hundredths of a foot-pound. Nevertheless, some folks consider the .30-06 to be a sensible choice and a 7mm RM to be �a hard-kicking slobber-knocker magnum�.

I will also take issue with the author�s comparison of a .30-06/180g/2644fps and a .300WM/180g/2919fps. The author states the following:


If the author is looking at the most unimportant characteristic, trajectory, then yes, there is about a 25-30 yard difference. Using 180g Nosler Partitions (BC .361) in both and zeroing both for Maximum Point Blank Range for a 6� diameter target, the .30-06 zeros at 257 yards while the .300 WM zeros at 283 yards.

Much more important, however, is retained bullet velocity, momentum and energy. With MPBR zeroing, at 300 yards the .30-06 is down 7.9� and retains 1982fps and 1569fpe. While a MPBR zeroed .300 WM is down the same 7.9� at just 330 yards, it isn�t until 410 yards that its retained velocity and energy fall to similar levels (1985fps and 1575fpe). That means the .300WM will do at 410 yards what the .30-06 does at 300 � or the .300WM will do at 300 yards what the .30-06 will do at 190 yards, and so on. A well-prepared hunter can make good use of that extra 110 yards.


The author also quotes Lee Rogers as follows:


While I agree a well-prepared hunter needs adequate practice, I disagree with this statement on a couple of important points. First, 30-40 rounds with a particular rifle � or any combination of rifles � per session is not a requirement. During my trips to the range it is not uncommon for me to shoot 30-40 rounds or more. Sometimes that count will come from a single rifle, sometimes it will come from 4 or 5 different rifles. Sometime I go to the range, take a dozen shots (give or take a few) and come home. The important thing to me is that I am getting quality trigger time. Come towards hunting season and I will focus more on the particular rifles I intend to use, but by then it is very rare for me to take more than a few shots with the rifles each session, let alone 30-40. Adequate practice, yes, but that comes in many forms.

I also take exception to Lee Rogers� position �After sighting in, all the hunter's practice should be from hunting positions likely to be used in the field.� While I agree such practice is valuable, I have not found it necessary to use such positions exclusively as Rogers recommends. Nor do I believe all such practice needs to be with the particular rifles to be used for hunting. Although I am likely to finish up with the rifles I intend to hunt with (I always take two to hunting camp), my final days at the range often find me shooting several rifles that will stay home. Again, I think �adequate practice� is the key and it comes in different forms.

i find it interesting that the Alaskan study, while seeming to promote the non-mags, shows that the number of magnums in the sample to be 1018 compared to 605 non-mags. it appears that the Alaskans prefer magnums if that small sample is representive of the whole.

I think the presence of grizzly and brown bears tend to legitimize "magnumitis", though.

I've always figured a hunting trip to Alaska would "legitimize" a purchase of a new rifle - something in .338" or .375" that burns a lot of powder...

It might,but only if the right one is chosen,and matched with the right bullet;but given that most bear related self-defense scenarios take place at close range(where bears are dangerous),a magnum case may or may not provide the intended benefit over,say a 9.3x62 or 30/06 with good bullets.

The average magnum user today is likely to be loaded up with the latest plastic-tipped or other tin-foil bullet(unless he knows better),and then he is likely to be in trouble.Hopefully he will be smarter than that

In a test done by USFW Service regarding suitable rifles for bear protection(published a few years back in Rifle Magazine)many of the 7mm,30 cal,and 8mm magnum rifles finished way down the list behind the 30/06 in performance for close range bear work.

Bob �

I agree a proper bullet is mandatory. Lighter bullets and higher velocities generally mean better bullets are required while lower velocities and heavier bullets generally allow less exotic bullets (read standard cup-and-core). Regardless, I don�t use �tin foil� bullets for anything but varmints, my preference for big game including North Fork, TTSX/MRX, and A-Frame bullets. (Although I was burning up some 120g Grand Slams (.257 Bob) and 160g XLC�s (7mm RM) at the range last Sunday, I no longer use them for hunting.)

I have done a study on the results of the USFW study and found significant errors in their methodology (errors a Junior High math student could find). I�ll try to post those results this evening when I get home.

My comment was specifically a response to Toad's, in which he said that Alaskans carried more magnums....

Call me gutless (or heck, go on the Campfire section and take your pick of names to call me! ), but if I were hunting around grizzlies I'd be carrying my .325 or .338 and not feeling the least bit "overgunned".

I used to own a 45/70 Guide Gun and one of my imaginary justifications for owning it, was that it'd be a good "camp gun" or canoe gun if/when I ever got up to Alaska....

Coyote, you and I shop for bullets in the same places..... I think I am followin' you around cause they tell me you been there just before I arrived...

I zero'd my 338 Ultra and 210xlc's this morning for a new scope I put on it. I plan on using it for just about everything this year, to get very comfortable with that rifle.

I joined this site to post my opinions of a 243 being used for elk. I am a big guy and I love recoil. Ive shot Rockchucks for hours with a 375 h&h. Even my 10/22 hurt to shoot at the end of that day. I will not cuss a guy who can kill elk effectively with a 243 or a 45-70. I will cuss the guy who cant handle what he is packing light or heavy calibers. I shoot a 257 stw for everything. 110 gr accubond over 82 grains of imr 7828. Kind of a contradiction big mag case with a small diameter bullet. But pushing that bullet at almost 4000 fps there is no such thing as holdover on animals or targets at ranges I will shoot at. And 9 time out of ten I get complete pass through and huge exit holes. That little bullet has been extremely impressive on elk. I shoot what I have the most confidence in. I dont need to stop a grizzly or a cape buffalo. All I have to do is plant that first pill in the kill zone. One shot one kill is nice but if that bull twitches an eyelash I am putting another in him regardless of what caliber I used to put him down the first time.

Jeff, I carried a 375...nothing wrong with having some respect for those animals

As promised, here is the review I did of the USFW �Safety in Bear Country� report on bullet performance.
[url]https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...FW_Safety_in_Bear_Country_bu#Post3993695[url]

I started a new thread rather than hijack this one with any comments that might follow regarding my review.