Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles The rifle or the shooter?

After learning about the previlance of custom guns among shooters I wanted to know how much you thought had to do with the hunter and with the shooter. Is there a percentage? <P>While watching tv the other day, I saw some guy from Montana who could hit small balloons from 200 yds. with a snubbie .38. I know that this man obviously has an exemplary gift and it should not be expected for everyone to be able to do this, but it does raise the question. He also could hit balloons with an ironside 44 revolver at 400 yds.<P>Maybe getting custom guns is a way to be able to shoot better when one does not have the time to able to "know a gun". <P>When I was younger, I owned a relatively cheap air rifle with a daisy 3X9 scope (which didnt shoot straight) which I took to shoot at a range near my house. Everyone laughed at me since their scopes cost 2 to 3 times as much as my rifle. I won several awards in plate shooting becasue i had a relatively accurate rifle that I knew.<P>i am not saying that a person who is a good shot with a bad rifle will always beat the th "custom-gunners", but it is something to think about.<P>I'd like to know hat you think about the subject, <P><BR>Chris

Cazador,<P>I think, given a firearm of reasonable quality, that it comes down to the guy pulling the trigger. I don't know if you have ever been around any competitive shooting events, but it can really be evident there. There are two examples in particular that come my mind right away:<P>1) As a kid, I worked as a puller for a club that shot a lot of ATA Trap. There was one guy there by the name of Rudy Etchen. He shot a plain jane Remington 870 for doubles competition. He ran more straight rounds than anyone I ever saw, and was smoking the birds when he hit them. I also believe that you will find his name in the ATA record books a lot of years for winning the PA State Shoot and Grand with that same 870. Did he have a lot of talent? Yes, without a doubt. Did he also practice, shoot a lot of birds, and know his gun inside and out? Yes, again without a doubt. I always loved to watch him beat the guys with the $5000+ trap guns. They couldn't understand that you can't buy the skill that this guy got from some god given talent and a LOT of practice.<P>2) My favorite shooting sport is IHMSA silhouettes. I have been at this game of and on for over twenty years. I shoot guns that range in cost (to purchase new) from $250 to $700. Not exactly bank breakers. I have shot more than my fair share of 40s, 60s, and 80s. There is one guy, who'll remain nameless, that has been at the game almost as long as I have. He has been through every $1000+ revolver or single shot pistol on the market. He changes sights/scopes on these guns like I change shoes. His scores still are consistently in the high twenties or low thirties. If it was the equipment, he should beat me (and a lot of guys that shoot better than I do) every month. But he doesn't. Why? He shoots only at the monthly matches or at most one practice session between matches. Again it all comes down to familiarity with your chosen firearm and that only comes with a lot of practice. <P>I agree with you that even the best shooter will be at a disadvantage with a bad gun, but I still beleive that good shooter with gun of reasonable quality will outshoot the average guy with a custom gun any day. <P>When does the custom gun become an advantage? When you have two shooters, equally talented, shooting side by side. If they are both doing everything right, physically and mentally, the guy who has the gun that is capable of the extra half MOA accuracy is going to win. <P>------------------<BR>Stush

Guys, I'm neither an expert nor a great shot. I'm probably not even a good shot by the standards of this board. But I can make a comment here that will withstand the test of time.<P>A person who shoots a lot (passionately) can learn to do amazing things with his/her gun. That person will shoot the pants off someone who shoots a high-dollar gun once in a while.<P>Now, the person who shoots a lot (passionately) and is gifted and uses a high-dollar rifle is another thing altogether.<P>Still one must acknowledge the freaky capabilities which show up in shooting.<P>Talus

Stush<BR>Your comment about Rudy Etchen made me think of a funny story. When I was in England a few years ago, I went with some guys to shoot some sporting clays. While we were getting organized, I watched a fellow get out of his Land Rover, put on his expensive shooting gloves, vest, boots, cap, etc. He had a double shotgun that must have cost the same as his truck. He gave me (in my jeans, steel cap boots, plaid shirt and shaggy hair) a once over, and I don't think he was impressed.<P>After registering, he was shooting in front of us. First stop was the practice area. He took about a dozen birds, and hit about 5. I was next and he stayed to watch. Out of ten birds I broke nine. He huffed off, trying to put some distance between us. I was using a borrowed plain jane semi auto 12 guage. I also beat all my English buddies, using their own guns!<P>I'm not bragging, as I'll be the first to admit I'm an OKAY (not good, not great, just okay) shot, I just shoot more than those guys. (and maybe I got lucky that day) But this illustrates it is the guy, not the gun.

It's the shooter. A custom rifle is a reflection of the shooter. Usually, the shooter has shot/hunted enough to know what he/she wants, and must have a custom gun built to get what he/she wants.<P>I like what Talus said. A good shooter can use any gun well, but a gun a good shooter has designed and had built will make him a even better.<P>You can slo build a lot of commonality in your custom guns for max learning transfer. It has to do with those habit patterns I am always talking about. All my rifles are very similar and this minimizes error when swapping between various rifles.<P>Blaine<p>[This message has been edited by AFP (edited March 23, 2001).]

A lot depends on what you're shooting. Let me start with rifles for big game hunting. Let's face it. In most big game situations, all you have to do is put a bullet into a foot square target, usually shooting from a shooting position, like standing or kneeling, where, even if you had a laser, you couldn't group less than six inches. Since any modern rifle will group less than that, it doesn't really matter what you shoot. The rifle will shoot a lot better than you do.<P>At the other extreme, you have bench shooters who desperately need every little bit of accuracy available, and although I don't shoot varmints, I would think a varmint shooter trying to knock the head off an itty-bitty animal at 300 yards would be in the same boat. Both will take a very steady supported position for shooting, with slings.<P>My personal opinion is that a custom gun for big game hunting is like a BMW for commuting. <BR>As a BMW isn't going to get you to your office any faster than a Chevy, the custom gun isn't going to kill any more animals than a Remington 700. That said, as a car buff, I's sure rather drive a BMW.<P>Shotguns (my real expertise) are not made for "accuracy," of course, but stock fitting makes a real difference shooting either low gun or in the field. This doesn't show up much on the trap or skeet range shooting high gun where any good shooter has learned to compensate for the stock of his favorite gun. But watch them shoot low gun, especially if the unfitted shooter isn't used to it, and you'll really see the difference.<P>So, is it the gun or the shooter? As in most things, it depends.<P>

Back when I was in school, a couple friends and I started shooting clays as a stress reliever rather than hitting the bars in town. The only shotgun I had was an old full choke single shot Stevens 12 gauge I had bought from an uncle for $25.00. There must have been a lot of stress, because we shot a lot! Move ahead a year out of school, another friend from school finds out I'm in prime pheasant country here in Iowa. He shows up with a new Auto-5 with fancy engraving--a beautiful shotgun. By this time I had picked up an 870, but wasn't confidant with it. So I grabbed the old single shot. The first bird up, he emptied the magazine without ruffling a feather. When he lowered his shotgun I dropped the the rooster at 40 yds. The $25 shotgun came through, we both had a good laugh about it. Rex could soon shoot my socks off with his Browning after he got used to it. This is just one example that in hunting situations, it's the shooter knowing what tool will do. Bench shooting is another subject. The tool does matter there...cowdoc...

I own and use 4 rifles. All my rifles are custom made for a specific purpose. For me to say I can shoot a lessor built rifle as accurately and I can the rifles I had built would be false on my part. <P>I will agree with those that say for "most" applications of big game hunting a factory rifle will work just fine. My case is somewhat different. I have a handicap that doesn't allow me to shoot big game offhand (unless it is the size of the empire state building at 50 feet). My long range deer rifle is a custom made 300 win mag, 29" barrel (#5 1/2 contour). I shoot this rifle off a bench and have the elevation adjustments worked out to 650 yards. For this rifle and it's intended purpose I "need" that 1 MOA or better accuracy. <P>My varmint rifle is used to kill woodchucks (mostly) out to 650 plus yards. Again for it's intended purpose I "need" that 1/2 MOA accuacy. <P>My 7mm mag is my carry rifle for big game. If I see a deer at 100 yards and there is a tree available that I can grab ahold of then I can use that small tree to steady myself and that rifle really doesn't "need" to be that accurate. <P>I have shot bench rest and like another here has said: You want every .001" you can get. <P>I shot competitive skeet for some years and in that case I don't really think it makes much difference which shotgun you use as long as the shotgun "fits" you well. I use a Browning Lightning O/U (for doubles) and that definately isn't considered a high dollar shotgun on the skeet circut. <P>As a summary, I think it is both the shooter and the rifle/shotgun/handgun. <P>Another side benifit of having a rifle built versus a factory rifle (most of the time) is the barrel cleans easier. Then again "most" hunters/shooters don't properly break in their barrels in the first place. <P>Now that I am totally confused, I will shut up. <P>Don

Thanks for replying, I am not a big custom gun advocate but I do agree whole heartedly that a good gun is important. I have never owned a custom gun, but all of my rifle have been MOA, so I guess that I am lucky. <P>Thanks<P>Chris

I've known and shot with Rudy Etchen and, while your description of him shooting 100 straight at trap doubles with an 870 is completely accurate, it is not just a lot of practice. He is one of the most gifted shotgunners who ever walked. As I recall, some years back, Sports Afield nominated him for the best all around shotgunner ever! He can shoot all shotgun sports with equally complete mastery and don't even think of trying to outshoot him in the field. He commonly kills 5 quail on a covey rise---where it is legal to shoot an unplugged gun. He is phenomenal. Haven't seen him in a few years, last I heard he was more or less retired in the Phoenix area. I toast his abilities wherever he is.

If It Flies It Dies,<P>I haven't seen Rudy in years. I will agree that he is an exceptional shooter, and likely didn't practice much at the time that I knew him. I would imagine that he didn't do that well the first time he picked up a shotgun. At one point in his life, he probably put in a lot of hours on the range and in the field to get to the level that he was at during the 70s and 80s. As for his whereabouts, I believe you are correct. His son Joel runs a fairly large firearms dealership near Ligoneer, PA - specilizing, of course, in Trap/Skeet/Sporting Clays/high end field shotguns.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Stush

Stush,<P>Don't misunderstand what I said, I did not say that Rudy didn't practice, as I am sure he did at great length. Although his father was a well known shotgun shooter in his own right and, no doubt, started him off right. Ever heard of the Etchen grip? What I meant was that while practice will help almost all of us improve, at some point, we will plateau, and you could practice 24 hours a day and you will not improve. You have reached your level of competence in that endeavor. I was just pointing out that Rudy's level of competence with a shotgun is somewhat above most of us ordinary humans. As for me, I need all the practice I can get. In other words, to go back to the start of this thread, in the final analysis it is the shooter, practice only helps polish his abilities. Good shooting.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cazador:<BR><B>Thanks for replying, I am not a big custom gun advocate but I do agree whole heartedly that a good gun is important. I have never owned a custom gun, but all of my rifle have been MOA, so I guess that I am lucky. <P>Thanks<P>Chris</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Chris,<P>For about the first 30 years I hunted I never owned or used a custom built hunting rifle either. Then I got hooked into the long range stuff. A buddy of mine was hot and heavy into killing woodchucks out to 700 yards. He is to blame, he got me hooked <P>I checked just the other day on a 22-250 factory Rem 700 with a S/S barrel. New in the box was around $940. OUCH, for a couple hundred more I can have a rifle that will definately shoot better. Thats the reason I went the custom route. Other then my varmint rifle most of my rifles including the action were around $1100. My 7mm mag as an example was $980 complete. I am not saying "most" NEED a custom made rifle but the accuracy is definately better then "most" factory rifles or I should say the "potential" is greater for more accuracy. If I never killed an animal past 100 yards I would of never sold my Marlin lever action chambered in 35 Rem. I sold it 2 years ago for $200 with a Bushnell Banner 4X scope attached. The guy who bought it removed the scope and uses iron sights. He has corresponded with me since and he loves the little rifle. <P>I guess it depends on the intended use of said rifle. For me custom is the only option. <P>Don <P>

I read an article many years ago about a S&W 38 Special once owned by Ed McGivern, the famous pistol exhibitionist. If you haven't heard of the exploits of McGivern, you should read about the things he was able to accomplish with firearms. Anyway, this particular revolver had been used by McGivern in many exhibitions to do things like split playing cards set up sideways and powder aspirin tablets thrown into the air. The present owner wanted to determine how accurate this revolver actually was. The action had been finely honed (probably by heavy usage) and was slick as glass. However, when he put it on a Ransom rest, he found its accuracy was similar to most any other Smith. How did McGivern do what he did with the revolver? There is no doubt in my mind that it is the shooter, not the gun!

A good question. I'd have to say that its mostly the shooter, but that doesn't mean that good equipment doesn't help. There is alot more to accuracy then just what the gun is mechanically capable of, ie shooting from a solid rest.<P>One thing that isn't given much thought these days is what makes a gun shootable. Things like stock fit, trigger pull, and sighting equipment have a vast affect on how well one can shoot a given gun. Certainly one can shoot guns that are difficult to shoot well, but a gun that is set up to ease this task can be a benefit.<P>I think that is the real benefit of a custom gun, that it is set up so that you can do a better job of shooting it well. Whether this means that it shoots all loads well, as opposed to painstakingly assembled loads, or one that just fits as apart of you.<P>I personally would rather put $500 into a rifle to get a good custom barrel fit and the action tuned, then to spend countless hours to go through 4 different powders and 1/2 dozen component bullets to find the magic load.

It's the shooter. It only follows logic that a good shooter will be even better if the rifle is better.<BR>NOW, with that out of the way, add the hunter part to this question. Is it the good shooter with the good rifle who gets the game or is his ability to find and outfox game more important than his ability to shoot?

IMO it is the ability to find game and know what it is likely to do under various circumstances. Given of course the ability to hit what you point at. If you have a rifle and are able to hit a postage stamp at 200 yards it does you no good if you can't find a postage stamp to shoot at.<BR>BCR

.338 WIN: Your response reminded me about a time when I was fishing King salmon by the "C" street bridge in Anchorage. This guy steps out of his truck, looking just like a picture from some fishing magazine, nice and clean looking brim hat, brown fishing vest with a million pockets and fishing flies hanging all over, slick chest waders, and some kind of custom rod. I almost started laughing when he jumped in the water getting in front of the crowd there, and best of all, looking like a full missing every fish he hooked. He had no idea about salmon fishing, but he sure managed to step on a few toes. The locals got the fish, of course.

Most accurate rifles are limited by the shooter. However, a custom rifle which will typically be more accurate than a factory arm will benefit a truly good marksman. It will not make a poor shooter noticebly that much better.<p>[This message has been edited by Swift (edited June 02, 2001).]