Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Benchrest accuracy vs. field accuraccy

Over the years, I've seen lots of discussions about this. The bottom line seems to be what accuracy does for you in the field. Usually, somebody says "my .5 MOA rifle is lots more accurate in the field than your 2 MOA rifle", etc. They then go on to say that the best they can do is shoot 3 MOA from a field position, and their .5 MOA rifle enables them to shoot 3.5 MOA field groups. Whereas my 2 MOA gun can only shoot 5 MOA in their hands, etc. It doesn't work out that way. Why ? Because their .5 MOA rifle throws almost 75% of it's shots into the existing 3 MOA group. So he gets a 3.125 MOA group, not a 3.5 MOA group. Or, at least he should. The guy with the 2 MOA rifle, then gets 3.5 MOA groups, not 5 MOA groups. Where did I get these ideas ? By trying it out. Some of your "on the edge of the group" rounds are going to fall back into the 3 MOA group. Am I alone in this thinking ? I got the idea from some comments made by Jeff Cooper. Then I saw similar comment by John L. Plaster in his book "The Ultimate Sniper". He said that 1 MOA is enough, for sniping. .75 MOA is better, but 88% of the snipers/shooters out there can't use .5 MOA accuracy. Now before somebody gets their blood pressure into the danger zone, I'll say that I like all the accuracy I can get. When I buy a custom barrel, I buy the best availible, and have it cryo processed as well. Heck, it's fun shooting tiny groups. One more thing. Groups at 100 yds. aren't consistant. It is well know that some rifle actually shoot better at extended ranges. I have a friend who shoots tactical matches. He uses a stock, carbon steel Remington. With Federal 175 gr. Match ammo, he gets 1.25 MOA, or worse, groups at 100 yds. But, at 800 yds., his groups .6 MOA, or better. Comments ? E

personally? I consider deer to be 6 MOA targets, If I can shoot that or less, I'm happy.

For the way I hunt whitetail deer, benchrest and field are one in the same. I use a bench, front rest and rear bag in the field. I am probably the exception and not the rule though. The tighter I can get my groups, the further I can kill a deer. Once my groups get larger then 6" thats my max range for deer. At the present time I am at 650 yards. Thats all the further I have worked the rifle out so far. IF I can maintain 6" or less groups I will go for 750 yards this summer. <P>Don

I'll ad my experience to this, since I shoot long range each weekend, and do a whole bunch of load development as an ongoing thing.<P>I'll use two rifles. Both are custom built on Rem700 actions. One is a 22-250, the other a 308win.<P>The 22-250 largest record group at 100 yards in the time i've owned it has been in the high 0.2's. The 308 routinely shoots in the low 0.4's at the same range.<P>The 22-250 at 1000 yards ( yes you can )<BR>shoots twice it's 100 yard grouping, somewhere around 3.75 to 5 inches. Worst 1000 yard group thus far has been 8.975" for 5 rounds from prone position with no rear rest. It was near dark and I was using an illuminated reticle, couldn't see enough terrian to read the wind.<P>The 308 with four different bullet weights shoots into just under 1moa at 1000 yards, from a prone position.<P>Both shoot about 1.1-1.3 moa prone with a sling from 1000 yards.<P>Don't know whether that proves or disproves the point.........but there it is.

I wouln't go in the field with a rifle that wouldn't shoot at least a 2" group. The rifle I use on whitetails shoots 1". It sits inside, by the kitchen door, so temperature doesn't affect it's accuracy.

E, comments? You bet.<P>It is quite possible to shoot tiny groups all day long and miss the heck out of your game, be it muskrat or musk ox. It is also very possible to be an expert marksman, but fail to shoot game in the vital area.<P>One cannot assume that prowess on paper will translate into the field. Having done both, I know I am better prepared for hunting game by shooting grasshoppers and dragonflies with my air rifle than I am by punching paper with my .270 (Of course, I know the .270 pretty well from prior shooting, and she is sighted in and ready).<P>In the field, the only shot that really counts is the first, cold-barreled one. It had better be spot on, or the odds are that things will go badly.<P>It's possible to kill very well with a gun that shoots poorly -- if you take the shots you can make. And it's as easy as falling off a log to miss close shots with excellent-shooting rifles. Don't make me explain how I know this, please!<P>That said, I'll take my rifles moa if I can get them that way. But I wouldn't stay home and pout if deer season rolled around and all I had was a 3 moa shooter. I may have to modify hunting style a bit, but if I can fill the freezer with buckshot (and sometimes with a bow), I think I can with a 3 moa rifle.<P>Lots of things happen in the field that don't on the range:<P>you get excited and forget how to squeeze a trigger<BR>you get excited and forget how to follow through<BR>you get excited and forget to pick your target spot on the critter<BR>range estimation is off by a couple percent<BR>wind blows<BR>your heart beats faster<P>If any of these things happen to the tiniest degree the accuracy of the rifle rapidly ceases to have meaning, unless the rifle exists to shoot groups for fun. <P>I agree with Plaster, and he knows a heck of a lot more than I do. 1 moa is plenty. But more power to that person who has a great time wringing the last bit of accuracy out of a gun! That is an experience as legitimate as hunting.<P>But the person who goes into the field believing that shooting sub-moa groups has prepared him to kill things is in for a surprise!<P>There is an important difference between target shooting and game shooting which deserves more discussion. It is this: when many are taught to shoot centerfire rifles, they are taught to ralax, steady the weapon, and squeeze the trigger. Which is as it should be. But there is no urgency there. <P>In the field, time is of the essence. Often the hunter will have only a second or two to make critical judgements, to execute good shooting if he or she is to take game.<P>One must learn to use good form, to squeeze the trigger, and then to do it quickly. Very quickly. Targets will not teach you this. As O'connor said, good shots never yank the trigger. They may squeeze the trigger quickly, but they do not yank it.<P>This discipline is not easy to come by, nor is it easy to hold onto when horns appear!<P>Good shooting, Talus<P>

Talus, excellent post. I agree. I have found, however, that one can learn fast shooting techniques at the range. It's really very simple. You shoot against a stop watch, from a field position, at known distances. Shooting with a buddy helps put pressure on the shooters. Using a bland colored target, as opposed to a black bull against a near white background helps. You should break up your routine. Shoot whatever position works. Shoot different distances. Shoot two, or three rounds, against a stop watch. This tests how well you handle your rifle, the rifle itself, as well as how well you make that first shot. One of the biggest reasons I'm such a fan of the .308 Win round is the availibility of cheap practice ammo. The mil surp ammo I have shoots into the same group as my hunting ammo. This encourages plenty of practice. I really need to do this. I've found that a lot of bench rest shooting tends to slow my trigger squeeze time down too much. Again, good post. E

Thanks, E. I thought that the Poatal Match was good practice. It did put the pressure on me for that last round! Yes, there are fun ways to simulate game shooting during range/plinking sessions. More shooting is better!<P>I am limited by the amount of noise I can make locally, but fortunate to have any number of distances available thanks to an adjacent power line. Which brings up another interesting issue -- how many times do we send round after round to targets hundreds of yards away, only to find our game at 25 yards! That's when you find out if you're in the habit of keeping the scope on the lower power settings (generally a good thing).<P>Reminds me of the time I was forced to stop a charging muskrat at 30 feet with my .270. OK, it wasn't charging, but I didn't want it to charge into the pond. The owner had asked me to rid his pond of them.<P>Fortunately, I was shooting a 1.5-5 scope, set on 2. I remember thinking "Hmmmmm ... 1.5 inches high at 100 yds, how does this translate at 30 feet?"<P>I decided to hold on his eyeball. Bullet took him about 1 inch low. Amazing backflip arial, coming to rest a full 2.5 feet uphill from his initial position. Lots of raining muck and debris, all on a snow background. Quite a concussive muzzle blast. <P>The beast was recovered for fur value. Since he traveled about twice his body length after being shot, I decided to use 150 grain Partitions for future muskrat hunting.<P>I once shot a beaver at less than 10 feet through the neck with a .30-.30. Same scope, 125 grain hollow points. It swam away (but died quickly). Same rifle, same load, put into a muskrat 65 yards resulted in something resembling a leggy pudding.<P>Wait a minute, maybe this should be posted on the varmint board? At any rate, the point is that many times in the field shots will be closer than you plan for, and these shots can be unnerving. I don't go near ponds now without a PH backing me up.<P>"We need a bigger boat!" Talus<P> <P>Good shooting, Talus

Oops, pls. forgive double signature. 1:15 am here. Talus

Another good point. Reminds me of the last rattlesnake I shot with a high power rifle w/ scope. I forgot to hold high, and only nicked him. With a 7 mm hole in his side, pouring blood, he just kept on crawling. the next one almost cut him in half. I had forgotten to hold 1- 1 1/2 inches high at 10 feet to compensate for the scope being 1.5 inches above the bore. E

Youre right E. No matter how great it shoots at the range, it comes down to the shooter in the field. All of my rifles (and Brenekkees out of a cyl. bore) will at least cloverleaf. In fact all but one are MOA shooters. When I get into the field I get mad at myself if the bullet does not go within 2" of where I told it to go. The Marine Corps will teach you to take a guy in the head at 500 yds. out of iron sights. I am sure I can shoot out an eye at 200 with a scope.

<BR> I guess Im just one of those hunter's that feel's more comfortable in the field with a proven, highly accurate, rifle and load.<P> Last fall as I was bearing down on a Big Bull Elk, at about 350 yrds uphill, was I feeling good cause I knew I had a proven load/round/rifle? You bet I was!<P> I often shoot from the bench just to rebuild confidence in a rifle/load, it works for me............10

Who cares about groups in the field? What matters in the field is a rifle's ability to place the first shot from a cold barrel where aimed.

Erik. Your rifle doesn't do the shooting, you do. By shooting groups from field positions, one gets an idea how well, or how close to the mark, one will likely place his first shot. It gives you a chance to test your rifle handling techniques, to test the functional reliability of your rifle, and to practice. E

I won't lie and say this is origonal thought with me but a long time ago I was told "Shooting a rifle off the bench tells you how good the rifle can shoot. Field shooting tells you how good you can shoot." I have found that to be a true statement.<BR>BCR

I gotta agree with Eric Cartman. Field groups is knida an oxymoronic term. 1st shot , cold bbl. IS what's important<P>------------------<BR>Lest not we forget, America is a Republic, NOT a democracy. Learn the difference, spread your knowledge, help end the lie. Fear a government that fears your guns.

Of course you do the shooting; what kind of point are you trying to make? I also bet you've long told folks shot placement is key when in the field, which I believe it is, so I stand by my point that in the field the key is not how many shots your gun can put close together in a tight group, but how close to point of aim can your gun place the first shot out of a cold barrel. Nothing I said suggests bench shooting for groups cannot be a useful tool. But look at it this way, if a gun will shoot to within 1/2" of point of aim on the first shot but won't group better than 3", I still say that gun has OUTSTANDING field accuracy.<BR>

There is no such thing as a "too accurate" rifle. There is also no such thing as too much practice.<P>Blaine

Erik,<P>Well, if you have a one shot MOA rifle, that won't hold but 3 MOA for the second thru fifth shots then that rifle has some serious bedding or shooter problems.<P>Second of all, any hunter would be thrilled with hitting within a half inch of his point of aim, the problem is his point of aim may not be where the rifle is pointed at when it goes off. This is where practice comes in.<P>Standing, off hand, in a hunting position, no shooting jacket, no sling, most guys would be doing extremely well to hold a 4 inch group at 100 yards. Add exertion, excitement, having to hurry a shot at a disappearing animal, etc. and it becomes amazing that some of us kill anything. An accurate rifle is extremely important, but if you can't shoot, it doesn't matter. Practice, practice, practice.<P>And old hunters trick is to take paper dinner plates, and, in a safe area let someone put them up at unknown ranges. Walk up, see one, take an offhand shot, or three.<BR>Got to the next one. etc.<BR>That plate is about the size of the vital area on a deer and a little smaller tnan the one on an elk. But if you cannot consistly hit that plate, then whatever range it is at is too far for you to shoot standing.<BR>Just my opinion......

I'm well familiar with the difference between the inherent accuracy of a rifle and the "practical" accuracy of the shooter, but I think you may be missing my point which is relegated to the ability of the gun itself. <BR>If someone has a thin barreled lightweight rifle that won't group well when the barrel gets hot from several shots, but can be sighted in to regularly put the first shot at point of aim I think you've got a rifle with great field accuracy despite an inability to group well from the bench. Pointing out that practice makes perfect yada yada yada is a given unless your schoolin the bushleaguers.<BR>