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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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They sure as hell know how everything should be everplace else. Pretty compelling all things considered.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 840
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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They sure as hell know how everything should be everplace else. Pretty compelling all things considered. I thought that was Texans !!!! Some guides I know when inquired by a Texan "sorry all booked up" ... when a Cali-hunter calls "did I mention the sur-charges".
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Nah, the belt buckle crowd just lets you know how everything is better where they came from.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 10,817
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Wow, you're even more [bleep] up than originally thought. Pretty impressive. ............Well, come on down to So Calif then and FIX me up!! Most Californians seem to have a touch of Little Man Syndrome... Here is another prime example. Bet you don't think a .223 can kill a deer do ya? ..........Words are only words!! But you can join Steelhead and come on out then!!!.........I`ll be happy to show ya both some of that, as you put it,,,,,,,,"lil man syndrome!".............. And btw, a 223,,,,can kill a deer!! You`d lose on that bet too!!!
28 Nosler,,,,300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,704
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Notice that none of us are debating with you about whether you actually know things about firearms and hunting in California?
Worth considering...
Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 309
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Posts: 309 |
the real question is can you maintain your composure and make your body respond to your brains comands when you are being charge by 500 or more pounds of brown,and can you put a round in 4in moving circle when you don't know wheter to s--t or go blind
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 222
Campfire Member
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OP
Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 222 |
4" is the window of opportunity size? yikes!!
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,116
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,116 |
Which is one reason that many people in bear country carry both a handgun AND pepper spray--if for some reason they can't carry a long gun.
One of the more interesting stories from here in Montana took place maybe 10 years ago. A couple of guys were out bowhunting in notorious grizzly country. One guy had a handgun (I believe a .45 Auto) and the other had a big can of pepper spray.
They chanced upon a mama grizzly with cubs and she started acting aggressive. Apparently she didnt actually charge but the guy with the .45 got nervous anyway and started blasting away. He hit her once or twice, neither fatally, and then she did charge, and got him down and started chewing on him.
The other guy ran up with his pepper and sprayed her in the face until she left. Then he got his partner semi-patched up and out to the vehicle and to a hospital.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,828
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,828 |
Well I just read this whole thread, while I don't shoot handguns much I would think a 357 would be a whole lot better than say a rock, Are there better handgun cartridges for the task, yea but the chance of getting into trouble are quite slim. Take the gun if it makes you happy, I rifle or a good properly loaded shotgun is more to my thoughts on the matter, never mind about all the bs you have to go thru to transport a pistol these day. Never mind about exercising a Consitutional right. Or you could just file off the front sight so it will not hurt as much. There is a school of thought on that very subject. Have a great trip.
"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."
Anton Chekhov
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 618
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 618 |
FWIW -
This always popular topic came up on Kifaru forums some time back. After all the guys with actual experience said "understanding bear behavior is most important", and after all the guys with actual shooting experience said "a rifle is a better choice than a pistol", it still came down to what an adequate handgun caliber might be.
I've always said "the biggest thing you can shoot quickly and accurately". Think about that for a moment... It's easy enough to look at specs and say the minimum acceptable caliber is a .454 or whatever, but can you actually hit anything with your pet hand cannon?
Finally I posted a bear gun challenge. Draw from holster (or however you carry), shoot 2 rounds @ 10 yards, post your times and group size. That may or may not have been a realistic standard, but at least it was a standard. Only a handful of people participated and posted times, but the data was interesting nonetheless.
NOBODY posted pistol times with a bullet heavier than 250 grains that was going faster than 1350fps. That was with a .41 magnum. People posted times with bigger bullets, but at velocities closer to 1000fps. People posted times at higher velocities, but with bullet weights closer to 180. All group sizes were inside of 5".
I'm still waiting for the proponents of the really hot chamberings (like Garrett's 310 grain .44 doing 1325) to post a time and group size. I'm truly curious to see if the guys carrying these monster loads can shoot them with enough speed and accuracy to be of any use.
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Joined: Mar 2006
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well I talked to a few bullet makers etc. Consenus seemed to be
1. you want really high sectional density.
2. you dont want a jhp
3. said you probably want 1200fps at least
4. said hardcast flat point probably the best bullet.
5. said you want to get as many shots on target.
so high sectional density
.355" 357mag 147gr =.167, 158 = .179, 180gr = .204, 200gr =.227
.400" 10mm 180gr = .161, 200gr = .179, 220 =.196
.478" 454 casull = 335gr = .209 360gr= .225, 400gr=.250
.530" 500sw 400gr = .203, 500gr .254
based on those #s the 357mag doesn't looks so bad.
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forgot to ask them what the difference between hard cast and FMJ was. could someone tell me please 
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 222
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 222 |
9mm 147gr lol looks like one could get 1200fps from a full size gun ...maybe that is how the guy killed the grizz with a 9mm!  357sig 147gr 1300fps from full size gun hmm wonder if you could get 1200 from 158gr 357mag 158gr 1400fps 4" , 1300fps from 180gr , 1200fps 200gr 10mm 200gr 1300fps from glock 20, 220gr 1200fps.
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 222 |
based on those #s looks like the 357mag 180gr load is on par with the 10mm 220gr load. almost like the 357 better cuz I can shoot it better. I've shot a 454 casull before and that is an a$$$ load of recoil. I think I could get more shots on target with the 10mm or 357 faster.
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Posts: 10,817
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 10,817 |
Notice that none of us are debating with you about whether you actually know things about firearms and hunting in California?
Worth considering...
Dennis ...............As some others have, nice try in trying to change or divert onto another subject. Worth considering? I know everything that I need to know about firearms and hunting here in Calif. But as always, the little digs and blurbs (subject changers) keep on flying that have nothing to do with anything. Bottom line! When I`m in big bear country, hunting or otherwise, I`m wearing my very handy and fast 4" barreled 500 S&W. Now if some of you don`t wish to wear a sidearm and feel it is totally un-needed, then be my guest!!! It can`t get any simpler than that.
28 Nosler,,,,300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,704
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,704 |
Once again, you cleverly misunderstood everything any of us have tried to get across to you...no big surprise, given that you just don't get it. Or don't want to.
Son, you can carry whatever kind of pistol and rifle you want to, even when you come inside our lines to hunt here. We actually don't care what you like and what you carry -- that has never been the point. But when you've been here a few days once, under guidance of an outfitter and others -- stop thinking you know what to tell people to do here. And certainly don't imply that your knowledge is somehow superior to the experience of people who live here, just because you feel superior to us.
That is all. Do what you want...it's just fine. Just don't keep shooting your mouth off disagreeing with people who have spent vastly more time here than you have. Some of them, I suspect, have spent more time here than you've spent alive...
Carry on to suit yourself, of course...
Dennis
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."
"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."
"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 222
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 222 |
so just how thick is a bear skull...where you need to hit it?
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
The reason I say the 357 is up to the task, is only a CNS shot will stop a charging bear, and a heavy hardcast from a .357 will reach the brain or spine just as effectively as a 44, 45, 475 or 500. None of those more powerful handgun rounds placed somewhere are going to stop a bear, they also need to hit the cns.
I would diverge a bit from this idea in that, while one should not and cannot count on peripheral shot stopping, the bigger cartridges leave one with better prospects for frame breaking shots beyond a "vital miss" around the head or neck. I better trust and much prefer the idea of using a 300 hardcast or solid-type bullet moving at least 1000 fps. A 400 in a 480 moving the same would also be useful. If that takes out the spine at any point, or the pelvis, great. If all I get is one leg, that buys some time, however momentary it, perhaps, is. Stopping a bear is the ultimate time stopper. But slowing the process is another way to accomplish that outcome. While I prefer a handy carbine for bear duties when I really don't want to kill one, I think many times the now-mid-level big bore handguns get overlooked for the monster-mags. I have no use for a defensive handgun cartridge that blasts a bullet out with pressures required to move it at 1500 fps, give or take. Stout 44 Mag or 45 Colt loads or 480s seem just about ideal to me.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908 |
FWIW -
This always popular topic came up on Kifaru forums some time back. After all the guys with actual experience said "understanding bear behavior is most important", and after all the guys with actual shooting experience said "a rifle is a better choice than a pistol", it still came down to what an adequate handgun caliber might be.
I've always said "the biggest thing you can shoot quickly and accurately". Think about that for a moment... It's easy enough to look at specs and say the minimum acceptable caliber is a .454 or whatever, but can you actually hit anything with your pet hand cannon?
Finally I posted a bear gun challenge. Draw from holster (or however you carry), shoot 2 rounds @ 10 yards, post your times and group size. That may or may not have been a realistic standard, but at least it was a standard. Only a handful of people participated and posted times, but the data was interesting nonetheless.
NOBODY posted pistol times with a bullet heavier than 250 grains that was going faster than 1350fps. That was with a .41 magnum. People posted times with bigger bullets, but at velocities closer to 1000fps. People posted times at higher velocities, but with bullet weights closer to 180. All group sizes were inside of 5".
I'm still waiting for the proponents of the really hot chamberings (like Garrett's 310 grain .44 doing 1325) to post a time and group size. I'm truly curious to see if the guys carrying these monster loads can shoot them with enough speed and accuracy to be of any use.
Instead of posting groups and times how about I just post what worked for me. The bear in the left photo came in while I was working the Moose kill in the left of the photo. The weapon is a 475 Linebaugh and that day it was shooting a 390 LBT LFN hard cast at 1350 FPS. It worked to perfection, and yes I can hit with it. ![[Linked Image]](http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/jwp475/00000009.jpg)
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908 |
No I did not CNS hit this bear and the big slug did its job well
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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