Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa After reading Jim's thread about the new camp got me thinking what is your threshold?

For the average guy going to Africa what is the threshold expenditure?

What is the realistic number of days to hunt?

Package deal or trophy fee list?

What would you expect to pay for daily rate in SA or Namibia?

For me, I think the threshold expenditure is $5,000; it seems to me most folks for PG are comfortable with 7 days, for DG 10-14 days; it seems like most folks prefer a package deal with at least one of the "glamour" game species - Kudu, Gemsbok, Eland, etc. Daily rate for 1x1 falls out around $350.

What do you guys think?

Do you view it differently.

I have never done the package deal but is seems like there could be some big negatives when it comes to trophy quality, but could be a positive for the guy who wants to bag lots of game.

A lot will depend on how the package deal is offered. If it is a flat fee you lose if one of the package animals is not taken. Jim offers a refund or exchange if a package animal is not wanted or taken. I always compare deals based on daily rate and trophies sought.

It takes so long to make the flight to Africa that 7 days is a minimum - 10 days is better even if one or two is used for touring.

As far as cost, I am, like most people, on a budget and am always looking for the most cost effective - not necessary the cheapest. Cheap might mean corners are cut, animals are not available even if priced, or quality may be poor. $4.5K - 7K is not unreasonable for a 7-10 day PG hunt.

I don't think it's possible to find a good DG hunt for less than 10 days at $1000 a day plus trophy fees. Some still offer 7 day buff hunts but they re becoming fewer I believe. I'd like to see proof of trophy quality and success rates on a 7 day DG hunt before seriously considering it.

pdawg, when I went in 2008, it was a pkg. deal, and I took 1 additional animal. It included kudu, gemsbok, blue wildebeast, impala, blesbok, and warthog. In addition, I took a zebra. We hunted for 10 days, and total time gone was 14 days. Considering how long the flight is, I personally wouldn't go for less than 10 days actual hunting time. In the hunt itself, I had about $6200. Total trip cost, including tips, airfare, taxidermy, and getting everything home, paid out over 3 1/2 yrs. was about +/- $11,500.

If I was going again, I'd do the daily rate/TF, because some of the animals I want, you don't normally see in pkgs. Normally these are higher, because the company doesn' have any idea if you are going to take 1 or 10 animals. They have to ensure enough money for the time the hunter is there.

Animals I'd like to take, are red cape hartebeast,eland, black wildebeast, common springbok, Hartman's zebra[if Namibia], bushpig[if RSA], and of course the only repeat, another warthog! Don't think I could ever go over and not try for another good wartie

One of the neatest ideas I have seen is the "build your own pkg." hunt. Where in you pay the daily rate, and if your TFs get over $2000, you got a 10% discount on the TFs. If you go over $3000, you get 20% off the TFs. This essentially is what a pkg. is except you don't always get to pick the animals.

As far as daily rates, with/without vat tax included, anywhere from $250/$350 per day. I'm personally not going to give $400+/day for a plains game hunt, but thats just me. As far as going back, I loved the limpopo/RSA, but want something different. That's why I'm considering Namibia. That being said, I might look into the limpopo again, if we could cross over into the tuli block, in Botswana, for the majority of the hunt. JMHO, your mileage may vary.

maddog

Very open ended question and of course all tied in to our respective disposable incomes. I agree that Africa and especially a PG hunt is a far better value than a hunt here in the states. Having said that, if I'm going to travel that far to hunt and where the cost of travel is a big factor, I just won't go for five animals or less on a PG hunt and even on a "specialized" hunt, i.e, leopard, I simply have to hunt at least four more. It just makes sense to me, but then again I am fortunate I can afford that. Others here go every year and hunt all the big stuff from elephant on down. Also while I think there are some wonderful places in RSA to hunt, I prefer a bit more "wildness" in my hunts so I go to Zimbabwe which in my view it with Mozambique coming up fast, the best value in Africa. So if you are asking for a top threshold, my next trip will be for leopard & sable, so including air fare, trophy fees etc but excluding tasidermy, my threshhold will be in the 25K range. jorge

On average, I think most people are comfortable spending between $5K - $7K for a PG hunt in RSA or Namibia. These days though, you can find some very attractive offers (either package or daily rate/trophy fee) if you do some research and negotiate.

I agree with Oday that 7-10 days is about right for your typical PG safari in RSA or Namibia. If you're after some more specialized trophies like the Tiny Ten, you'll probably need more time as those species can be very difficult to hunt.

I haven't gone the Package route yet either, although that could change soon. As I said, there are some killer package deals out there right now. For example, I'm really looking hard at a 7-day package for Nyala, Bushbuck, and Blesbok in KZN that's under $4K. Everything that I look for is included and it's a reputable outfitter so this is tough to pass up, IMO.

One thing that irks me somewhat is that I've noticed a lot of outfitters are offering package hunts that are almost more inclusive than the Daily Rate/Trophy Fee format. I've seen quite a few packages where things like VAT and the airport transfer is included but those are excluded if you want to build your own hunt.

To me, a reasonable Daily Rate in RSA or Namibia runs around $300 per day. I understand that the level of accommodation has a big role to play when it comes to Daily Rates but I don't need (or want) 5-star rooms or food so I tend to shy away from those places where the rate starts to head north of $400. For DG, cost structures change, so you have to expect to pay more.

"For the average guy going to Africa what is the threshold expenditure?" - For me it has been between $5000.00 and $10,000.00 for plainsgame.

"What is the realistic number of days to hunt?" - Because of the travel time I have never considered anything less than ten days.

"Package deal or trophy fee list?" - My first trip I did the seven animal package thing and ended up shooting seven additional animals. My last two trips I basically shoot until I'm out of money.

"What would you expect to pay for daily rate in SA or Namibia?" - $250.00-$400.00 for a plainsgame hunt seems fair to me. The one thing I have always had a problem with though is what some of these outfits charge for their observer rates.

Mike

Some good thoughts on this, thanks for sharing. Allow me to pull back the curtain of the wizard of oz here as I have done before let you peek behind and learn some of what is really going on.

There is a level of cost per hunter that needs to be covered to make the trip minimally profitable for an outfitter. This cannot be met when a hunter makes a deal on the daily rate and then shoots only an impala and warthog and wants to hunt baboons and jackals the rest of the days. This has happened many times. It's common when two buddies are going and one does not have the money to hunt, but does not want to go as a "non-hunter" The loss is so bad that there is not even profitability on the person that has hunted.

The " package deal" was spawned as a way to develop a break even point for the hunters trip. Many outfitters do not want the more expensive and popular game in a package. Easier for them to get full price when the hunters add them. Many say they will charge for the whole package if you shoot the game or not. This was seen by Outfitters in Africa as how the guided hunting businesses in North America work's. Why should they change that? RIght? You pay all your tags up front in North America if you don't even see the animal you still bought the tags.

We don't have that policy with a package hunt. Rather we know every single new hunter is going to want a Kudu and an impala, 99% want a warthog. Those that claim they don't want a warthog, actually do when they see the ivory on a pig standing 50 yards away looking at them, or when they see the first one brought to the salt room by another hunter.

An animal in the package that is not shot is not paid for..... simple as that. As far as the days go. 5 day hunts are a joke. That may seem harsh but this is not put and take hunting, and these animals are born here in the wild and know the drill. It's not shooting fish in a bucket. Add to that The 6 to 9 hour time change for the visitor and you have a mess to deal with when your hunters are not at 100% in the field.

Booking a package can be made to order as well. The purpose of the package is to give the outfitter some insight as to what his recovery will be. If you wanted Nyala, eland, and blesbok in the package to hunt ten days 1X1 most outfitters could put this together for a price that was different then Daily fee Trophy fee. Now add to this the VAT there is no VAT on the package, there are on Trophy fees. The business charging a package can have the deal up front to show the game is "thrown in" for the cost of the daily fees to get the hunter to camp. Hunters choosing to do Daily fee and trophy fee have a VAT tax that needs to come from someplace. Either in the form of daily fees or just having it added to the invoice at the end of the hunt. The Exchange rates are also a consideration. I have seen them fluctuate drastically over the years. Many times causing a serious loss of money for the outfitters, sometimes being so good they will throw in extra game, or make size-able price reductions on the spot. If John Richardson is reading these posts see what he says about the big waterbuck we saw and what I told him when they where not sure to take it or not! On the spot reduction in price because they were there with a good exchange rate. The water buck went home with them! However outfitters have to gamble a bit with the rates. Paying 50% deposit based on the current exchange is at least some safety margin that they know what they are getting for at least half of the trip. Then the other half is the gamble. The added on game can sometimes recover that to a sustainable level of business income.

The "Package" is not something to fear, it should be the starting point to develop your trip. If the package does not include the game you want then change it, if the trip is not the days you want, change it. If you're not getting the changes you want from the agent you're dealing with call the boss! Dealing directly with the guy running the show is where the rubber meets the road.

This has never been an issue as long as I have been around. It's normal business as usual. Probably why there have been so many hunters from this site to go hunting with me!

Jorge this was purposely open ended. I agree that all hunt is dependent upon ones disposable income. Folks in my circle of friends who hunt often have no issue with dropping several grand on deer hunts out west but always get cost conscious when one talks about hunting Africa. I also agree about the wildness aspect, but sometimes I think folks have to see the rodeo first before they commit to ride that bull. BTW, I agree with Zim and Moz, but I think Uganda might be the next big thing.

Uganda! Yes!!! and maybe someday Angola as well. As to your buds and deer hunting, I have the same friends who think nothing of spending 5K plus for a deer, a stinking deer! jorge

If they love white tails as much as I love African species, I understand their willingness to drop the coin.

What bothers me is when I am critiqued for spending on my love. Like others I have to count the costs, because I work as a public servant. My children are grown and established, my mortgage is paid, and so the 4800 JJ suggests seems reasonable to me. That cost translates to 12-15000 with flights and extra trophy fees. A vacation for my wife and I for three weeks seems reasonable.

Randy

5-6 thousand for a plains game hunt isn't too bad. You pay it in installments anyway. Deposit here, plane ticket there, remainder later, ect.

When I was looking into going to Africa I spent several years at the Houston Safari Club show talking to different outfitters. I chose a package deal because I new up front what the cost would be. The other outfitters had all these cost and fees that made it sound like a money pit. I was very pleased with the hunt and ended up shooting gold metal Kudu, gold metal Gemsbok, gold metal red heartebeest, gold metal blesbok, gold metal duiker, silver metal springbok and a jackal. 7 full days hunting (9days in Namibia) for $6200 plus tips and airfare.

This is all really good information, I'm taking notes! Please continue!

JJ, I completely understand the financial mess. I work in the cell industry where the cell companies do online, backward auctions with the contractors. All are online and submit their bids to build the site, then one-down each other in price until one prevails. No one makes any money and the new companies usually prevail and take a loss on the job. This happens until they smarten up, or go belly up! There always seems to be companies to take their place, though. The cell carriers usually end up hiring the established businesses to fix the mess the winning bidder created on site. It's probably like this in all industries, but then the same people who want top-dollar for the services that they offer, expect outfitters like you to provide your services for free! (My boss would be one of these people!)

The slickest set-up I've seen for package hunts was with the first outfitter I hunted with, twice.
He took most of the species in his area, divided them into three lists and said "take 2 off that list, 3 off this one and a couple off that one". It gave near infinite flexibility to build a package through your riflescope.

I hope everyone read JJ's post and took it to heart. I was on the referenced hunt with JJ and John Richardson (as I am the lucky son that went with them). Remember, with a package deal and additional trophy fees, the outfitter has the opportunity to be flexible.

Please don't underestimate this--one of the best things about our trip was that what we wanted really changed when we were in the bush. And the waterbuck story is an important one...I was finished hunting and a really nice waterbuck came to water. JJ said "Matt, that is a great waterbuck!" My dad had brought my grandfather's rifle, and as he had recently passed, it was an emotional thing to hunt with the same rifle I had used as a 7 year old boy with my dad and granddad. To kill a trophy waterbuck in Africa, with a family heirloom, with my dad next to me...that is what we're talking about. It was a great trip: affordable, flexible and professional. Think about it.

One more thing...I know this thread began with the discussion of thresholds, but the $5k range for the SA hunt with packaging options and modest trophy fees is terrific. But please do your homework. After going and having an incredible trip, it was worth another 10-20% knowing what I know now and reading some stories of other hunts.

Thresholds are important, but do your homework and know what YOU want, not what someone is selling. Then decide how much you can spend, check your references and do what you can to minimize the possibility of a bad hunt. I don't mean what you do or don't kill, but the kind of hunting and environment that you want to remember for a lifetime. My dad did the legwork, and JJ delivered.

Jim is spot on...I had already killed a really good waterbuck..[29.5", good mass] Matt [my son] had already killed pretty much what he wanted when the waterbuck came out..I told Matt..shoot that sucker!..Jim immediately said, shoot him! and here's a discount price..Jim recognized that Matt would be glad he did [especially with one of his granddads rifles]...maybe not a big deal, but just a sign of Jim's way of doing business and his perception of what's really important. I can reccomend Jim absent reservation!! Not only as a fine hunter, but a fine human man!

JJ and Matt,

Both of you have touched on something that I had not given much thought. Please elaborate on the concept of package flexibility. I'm sure it differs from outfitter to outfitter but a large number of package offers I've come across seem very rigid and inflexible. A lot these do not allow species substitution or refunds on animals not taken. A lot of packages also seem highly unrealistic in terms of length of time and number of animals. Any insights on this topic would be appreciated.

Another thing I've picked up on in this thread is that most of the issues discussed here appear to largely apply to RSA and Namibia. I am well aware that these two countries are where most Americans experience Africa and this is probably due to any number of reasons: easy to access, relatively affordable, relatively safe and stable, and pretty straight-forward hunting seasons and regulations. However, there are a sizable number of hunters who have done the "introductory" safaris in RSA and Namibia that have started to look at either DG hunts, other PG species, or both in other African destinations. (I include myself in this group although I hope to hunt in RSA and Namibia several more times.) To my mind, hunters looking at Tanzania, Mozambique, Zambia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, or any of the Central or Western African countries do not have the luxury of negotiation or packages to take advantage of in those locales. I think this is mainly due to the much more active role the game depts. play in those countries with regard to which species are offered on what length of license. (For example, you can't hunt Roan in Tanzania on anything less than a 21-day license, IIRC.)

pinotguy, What we did, after much thought, consultation and planning, was decide pretty much what we wanted to shoot. Then sent Jim a list, pretty much in order of importance. We also explained that our list were not "set in stone" While we were coming to Africa to hunt and kill "stuff", we also wanted to meet the people, see what we could and just "smell" africa. With Jim's direction, we did just that. But, as Jim says, this is africa! and things change. In our case, the change [not many or much] were always positive. And it was hunting, not just shooting. I had both zebra and blue wildebeast on my list..I didn't kill either one..there were lots of both, everyone else saw lots and each killed one. On the other hand, one evening Jim said " the trackers have seen the sign of what they believe is a really old eland bull, are you interested?" I said sure..the next day Jim sent the trackers out and they did pick up the sign..long story short, I killed a really big, old eland..and he is one of my favorite trophys. And at a very fair trophy fee. So while we did start with a "package" i.e. kudu,warthog, impala, if we didn't kill one of these, we were not charged a trophy fee. Another example was Matt's waterbuck..When the waterbuck bull appeared Jim said "Matt, you have to shoot that bull! I know you've shot every thing on your list, and spent your budget, so shoot him at a really discounted trophy fee." I would offer this advice, plan to hunt more days than you think, not because the amount of game is limited, but because it is so much fun.

Rule one, It's all about the money
Rule two, when its not about the money refer to rule one.

As I stated above, With us the package is your choice, choose what you want and let me know. I'll work with anyone to help them understand the time and possibility.

Somebody telling me they want a package for more then one animal per hunting day is not gonna like what I tell them. These hunts are not like a vending machine. We actually have to hunt, and hope and have luck and certainly hunter skill. This is not a farmed game ranch, with put and take or stocked game. We need at least a full day for each animal, and better for trophy quality 2 days per animal.

It's easy when you want 5 animals the first day, you have 5 intended targets. By the 5th day you may be seeing 100's of animals, females, young, immature, but your now looking for that one single trophy quality animal. This is always the stress of the hunt. The days are clicking down and you cannot get a good shot or find the big animal you want.

I make no mistake about what to tell people. Letting them believe what they want, or telling them what they want to hear is great to "sell" but that is not the reality of a long term success and future. Having any disappointed people return to the USA is not something I ever want to hear. I much prefer they believe these stories from another outfitter that does not have a vision of the future. I will only share knowledge and experience from the reality of what you can expect. But I never have people who feel like there was a bait and switch regarding what they wanted.

As far as those countries north of us, well they have much more then government control, although there is that element of the puzzle. Tanzania for instance has no requirement that the PH be trained by a Tanzania Hunting standard, or at least they did not in the past. Only that they pay the lease for the land. Funny that all that DG hunting has a lower requirement on the PH then the more southern countries with less DG hunting.

Also the game lands are leased by a very powerful Arab group. Then they sub lease those lands. When you book a hunt with the sublease agent, and the Arabs decide to hunt, your dates could be moved on short notice. Not frequently a problem because they have so much land. However you could be moved from the area promised to someplace completely different. Add to this the migratory nature of many of these animals and you could be headed to a location that may not be productive, or "as" productive as planned.

Tanzania is first and foremost "All about the money" Pay the lease, run the show, not much will stand in your way if you can spend the money to do what you want.