Home Forums Fishing Flyfishing leader question

I fly fish on a small lake with bass up to 3 lbs common and lots of bream, no stick ups, nothing to fray line except the fish themselves. Can I use plain old monofilament for leader material? 5-6' or so?

Yes, you can use it for a tippet, but I think a stiffer leader butt is the way to go. I like about an 8' leader with 4' of stiff butt and the rest as a tippet. I fish a lot of bass my self, use this with good effect. Maybe the butt should be 15# or so going to your flyline. If the leader-to-line connection is too fine, it can damage the line by cutting into it. A two-step leader/tippet is fine on large weighted streamers or poppers as they're heavy enough to turn over properly. Don't need to taper it a lot like a dry fly trout leader.

I use plain mono for trout leaders, just taper them down a lot more so they don't hurl the dry fly with a lot of velocity. The only reason I've found to buy tippet material is because it comes in convenient spools.

Excellent! So, the 14lb I have can be used for the butt directly to fly line, then 6-8lb can be used for tippet? Overall roughly 8'?

I think so. You can cast it and see if it works. It works for me.

I'll sure try it....

A leader butt should be very stiff mono. People often use 50lb but that is a pain to tie knots in. I use about 30lb maxima usually. Use a nail knot to tie the leader butt to the tip of the fly line. The leader butt should be about 1-1.5 feet long. Then I use perfection loops to create loop to loop connections between each of my steps in the tapered leader. Google perfection loop if you are unfamiliar, there are a lot of visuals on google for tying them. After the leader butt I loop on about 2 feet of 10-15 pound, then about 2 feet of about 8 pound. I use loop to loop connections for each step down so it is easy to replace just the tippet if the tippet breaks. Loop to loop is much easier than cutting and re-tying a blood knot in my opinion.

That is my set up when I am using big flies. For dries and spooky trout situations, I use furled leaders, which turn small flies over much better.
I hope that made sense, and if it didn't, feel free to ask more questions.

Riley

It does make sense...I don't use large flies or streamers though. If using small dry flies for bream (and bass by the way!) will the heavier line set up reduce castability?

When I bought this set up I stocked up on tapered leaders, I have several left.....but, I have miles of mono left over from my bass/offshore fishing days. Service spools of 30 and 50# test.

Just take an old leader, cut it back and add tippet. You will want the heavier butt section to help turn over your flies. Add tippet as needed. You don't need a long leader for what you are doing either. Try turning a deer hair bass bug over with a 15' leader.....

Thank you all! I didn't think a long leader was necessary on this lake, visibility is 2' or so.

So, maybe even 30# for the leader, and 8# for tippet? I've been using a 6' leader with great success.


That's 6' overall length, leader + tippet.

The only problem with a 6' leader is when you change flies, you lose maybe six inches, and after a couple of fly changes you've got a 5' leader. Nothing wrong with a 6' leader if you're getting results, but I like a longer one for convenience.

For those of you that are still using a nail knot for attaching a leader to the flyline you're missing out. The mono braided loop to loop connecters are the ONLY thing I've used since finding out about them years ago. It's the strongest slickest best system there is. Bar none. The connection will last an entire season and will not fail. It's also what I use for flyline to backing connections and custom made short sections of sink tip.

Cortland sells the kits as do others. Don't use the heat shrink tubing as a connecter and instead wrap it with fly tying thread (same method as rod wrapping) and seal it with some thiined out shoe goo.

Instead of buying the kits some fly shops carry the braided mono that you can buy in bulk. 3 or 4 feet of it will make enough connectors to last for years. To put the loop in the braid is similar to the method used in rod wrapping for tucking the thread under the finihed wraps. A a wire bobbin threader or a piece of small dia mono works good. All you do is pull a short 1" section back into the braid to form a loop. A small dab of superglue will lock it in place. I only use a 2" or so section of braid on the flyline. Even using a 20# leader for Kings the leader would break before the connection.

Riley,

Mountain View Sports carried the bulk stuff when I lived in Anchorage.

Here's a link that describes it.

http://www.docsflies.com/2q05.htm

I flat out guarantee if you try it you'll never go back to any other method for connecting a leader to the fly line.

FWIW, I like 25# Maxima for the butt section of a leader on a 7 weight flyline. It depends of what weight flyline you have as to what's the appropriate # test. A uni-knot is my choice to join two different diameter mono leaders.

Tight lines to ya,


fish head

Again, excellent advice....I'm new to fly fishing!

I have a 6wt, wt forward line. I do like the idea of loop to loop, maybe 5' of heavy mono with a 2-3' tippet. That would be easy enough to replace a nicked tippet without continually shortening the butt leader. I do change flies often, so my tippets disappear somewhat quickly....

We use lots of different combos for different situations... Welding loops in the end of the fly line is a neat option and works well for a number of applications...

I run my leader butt longer than Riley likes, but that is just a taste thing.

This is all very helpful...I'll let y'all know this evening how things go. Should find time to kill an hour or 2 later.

Art,

Just curious.

Have you found an application where you didn't like a a braided mono loop at the end of a flyline?

I haven't, that's why I'm asking.


fish head

I ain't Art, but I don't like the way the flex. I shave the butt with a razor blade, draw the line up through the end of the line with a needle and tie a needle-nail knot, OR Crazy Glue the butt inside the flyline and use a perfection loop. No flex in the system.

I've never used the braided mono loops. Don't care for them.

I've used the needle-nail knot method in the past and quit using it. It works well, but the one problem is that eventually the flyline breaks down and it gets the hinge effect which doesn't allow the leader to turn over smoothly. The mono braid loop is far better with this issue. There's a very smooth transition with the wrapped - gooped - loop. It doesn't break down. The only hinge is the loop to loop connection and that isn't a problem with a looped heavy leader butt section. This method casts very well for a very long time. That's the one aspect of it that I like the best. I also like using a fluorescent orange thread on a floating line that doubles as a strike indicator.


fish head

I do this with my butt sections on all my fresh water fly rods. Sew the butt section into the fly line, rough the line up slightly with sand paper, put a drop of zap-a-gap in the leader and pull back thru the fly line...no knot! I use either a Blood knot or a Slim Beauty knot for leader to butt section connection. I have not warmed up to loop to loop, i feel like it just makes an odd hitch in the line, a place for the casting loop to collapse. I see the value of the loop for those that don't like to tie knots, dont know which knot to tie when or who's eyes are giving out. The loop does serve a pupose, I just don't like them.

For SW....I do use the loop connection to connect backing and fly line. One loop connection attached with nail knots and UV to fly line, then put a double looped bimini twist in the backing and loop to loop connect two. a very smooth strong connection

To the OP....for bassing, take an old leader cut it back to 4ft and tie on an additional 3ft of 8 to #12lb tippet, you should be good to go for bass bugs.

I'll add this too. When I lived in Alaska the majority of my flyfishing was for Salmon and Steelhead and ususlly sink tips with a small split shot added as a bottom indicator. It was tough on flyline to leader connections with the added weight. This was the system that worked best for me. I also like it for smaller stuff, floating lines and small dry flies too.

A guy I worked with who was an absolute flyfishing only nut was the one who showed me this many years ago. He used this on his heavy stuff for flyfishing for Halibut with leadcore sink tips and BIG flies. He caught a 60# Halibut on a company charter we were on with his 12 or 13 weight saltwater flyrod. It was a hoot to see him do it.

fish head

I don't want to sound like I'm arguing the point and I too used to like the smooth transistion of nails knots etc.


"I have not warmed up to loop to loop, i feel like it just makes an odd hitch in the line, a place for the casting loop to collapse."

I gotta say that, for me, this isn't the case with loop to loop connections. I tie my loops very short (about 3/8") and it makes for a smooth connection that turns over perfectly. When you make an imperfect cast the leader doesn't see to hang up on the connection as much as with a nail knot either. It flows over the wrapped end of the flyline smoothly.

Everybody has their own opinion and it's not like any one method is wrong. Just having a good discusion with fellow fisherman.

I haven't tried the no knot super glue method yet.


fish head

good stuff fish head....I'd like to see a 60lb halibut pulled up with a flyswatter. Sounds like good entertainment for a couple of hrs....

The Krazy Glue connection works fine, but I did once have one that quit on me. So now I USUALLY use the needle-nail knot, or sometimes just a nail knot.

The loops certainly make it easier, and IIRC they use a form of cyanooaclate to hold the braid in place (don't they?). I remember when they used to have little metal loop thingies you stuck in the end of the flyline to attach a leader to...I never used them, but remember them anyway. I haven't seen one of those in years.

I like a loop to loop using a perfection loop, but don't feel strongly about it either way. A loop in a heavy leader is a bit harder to get through your guides, but that's life, I suppose.

You can use super glue/cyanocylate but one problem is that it's hard and not flexible. The braid portion grips the flyline by "chinese fingers" and it's held in place by wrapping it with thread. The loop portion of the braid is also held in place by "chinese fingers". A tiny tiny dab of superglue on one end of the loop is an extra measure. I've found it's really not needed if you use a thin coat of flexible sealant over the loop and wrapped portions. I use some shoe goo that has been thinned out with toluene or something similar such as Dave's fly head cement thinner. I haven't yet tried any other flexible sealants though I'm sure there are some that would work.

That link I posted shows a long section of mono braid on the flyline but I only use a couple of inches, at most.

Blast from the past. Long ago I used those little barbed metal eyelet connectors and the small plastic ones that required only a overhand knot on the leader and flyline. They both worked OK until you got the hinge effect going.


fish head

No reasonable fish can take a couple hours to land without a LOT of grandstanding... I have seen guys that have a clue about fighting fish put big halibut in the boat in just a few minutes... That would be fish over 200# on 30-50# Maxima. I have also seen those that insist on taking frequent breaks and whining take far longer.

Got distracted and entered that before finishing... No 60# fish there, but we have gotten them quite a bit bigger on the 12wt Penn Int'l 2-hander in the picture.

I do not particularly like the chinese handcuff linkage because I had bad experiences with failures.

For everything but salmon we use furled leaders and there is never a hinge with them as they turn over so incredibly well. If you are having that problem I suspect keeping your tip steady and up a bit will make that problem go away. Take the foundation out from under your line and it will start to collapse.

Have to run, more later.
art

Interesting on the furled leader thing. Never heard of it before. Gotta say though, to make one looks way more complicated than I want to get into.

I never had a problem with the mono braid connectors failing. With my 8 weight Lamiglas that I used for Salmon/Steelhead I could go the whole summer without breaking one or having to change it. It was Kings early on, Reds later, Silvers after that and Steelhead in the fall.

And yes, it doesn't take long on most Halibut. The longest battle I ever had with one is a 40#er that I caught on a standard 8'6"' Salmon rod. Somehow it threw the hook and then got snagged right smack in the middle of it's back. We had the harpoon out after tugging on this thing for about fourty-five minutes. I swear it felt like a 200# fish.

That picture looks like it was taken at Kodiak Island.

fish head

The advantage of furled leaders, if there is any, is that they lay out stright in case your stroke is off. The disadvantage is it takes nearly 300 feet of mono or thread to make one. If they're made of thread, they're also very limp.

On the side of simplicity, I posted a way to make a mono furled leader and it works great, takes a few minutes and doesn't need a jig. It's posted below. It's just the butt section and as said earlier, you don't really need a super taper for a big fly. The leader turns over very well.

Have you guys ever used the Chinese handcuff loop things as a connection for backing to fly line? It works well.

Nice halibut Sitka. It just seems those big ones would be like pulling a trash can lid off the bottom and a big one would take some time.

Alaska: Where you can't be too drunk or too fat.

No truer words. Thanks Homer and Gene. Sorry Art.

I never see my backing around here, so the connection doesn't matter much. But no, I never tried it.

Buzzed the lake for about an hour and caught/released 6 bass to 1 1/2 lb and one nice bluegill, missed another 4-5. Tied a loop knot in the butt, then another loop knot in tippet, about 3-3 1/2' and found this to be very nice for my fishing. Thank you all! I'll let you know when I try the black wooly buggers that attracts larger fish with this set-up.

Surprised I only caught one bream, I was using a very small fly.

If I cannot be too drunk nor too fat, what is left?

fish head

Furled leaders take a little bit of practice, but the jig is cheap to build and the required tools are cheap to buy... The thread is dirt cheap and a single spool of "invisible thread" lasts a very long time...

ETA Furled leaders last a very long time under reasonable use and care...

I don't think you mentioned it, but I'll bet you're using a 6wt or 7wt for bass. I would use at least an 8ft leader.

The advice from several regarding the use of stiff butt section is the way to go. The problem is that some of the line mentioned isn't really that stiff. I would use Rio Hard Mono for a butt, if not the Rio, I often use Ande Mono for butt sections, and you'll probably never have to change the butt again. Connecting the butt to the fly line can be done many ways but I either whip a loop into my fly line and connect the fly line to the butt loop to loop. Or, I would use an Albright knot. Very simple knot that is smooth and very strong.

I would then tie either a loop in the butt to connect the rest of the leader or use a blood knot or a uni-knot for the connection to the rest of the leader.

For the rest of the leader you could go 8' (4' butt 30#, 2' 15#, and 2' of 6 or 8#). I think that would work pretty well.

I use an Albright knot to fly line.....I just checked my set up and I have 2' of the original 9' tapered leader, with surgeon's know to 1' of 10# mono, to 4' flor tippet. When I get back from Dallas I think I'll change the butt to heavier mono, 4' with loop to 4' 8# tippet.

I really appreciate all the advice.

It's better if you have a tapered leader of some kind. Straight leaders don't turn over very well. Six foot is fine for a lake or stream with cloudy water. I fished a six foot leader for smallmouth bass in Minnesota a couple summers back. The streams were fairly clear.

I'd cut a 6 foot leader back and tie a surgeon's loop in the end. Loop the end of your tippet and do a loop-to-loop connection. That way you can refresh your tippet after a few flies. If you're going to fish a 2X tippet, buy a OX leader, cut it back and tie the loop. The Surgeon's Loop is a very easy to tie. It's also very strong. Close to 100% of line strength.

Longer leader 9, 12 feet or more are for real picky, spooky fish in clear water.

I do use non-tapered short leaders on sinking lines. The dark sinking lines don't spook fish. Plus, you much further down in the water where the fish feel more comfortable. You don't need those leaders to turn over generally as they need to sink for several seconds or more before fish strike the flies.

Good luck.

I cut back a 9' 3X tapered leader, put a loop at the end, then added 2' of tippet, overall length 7'......hitting the lake hard starting this afternoon. Unless I'm lucky and get a grand kid or 4.