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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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If the 5.56mm Nato works so well at 600m plus, why are both the Americans and the Brits equipping designated marksmen with 7.62mm?
I can understand the Americans doing it given the M4 has such a short barrel, but we Brits were using the LSW for that role and even with its 24" barrel, we were still not getting adequate performance at longer ranges with the SS109. FWIW: I have seen the MK12 (Navy SEAL/SF sniper rig based upon the AR platform) with an 18" tube do extremely well to 500 meters (shooting the 77 grain BTHP) Beyond that, not so great. Also, it was a MK12 CLONE (same tube, action, optics as the MK12) made up for a civilian. Ballistics would be the same, tho' Wiki LInk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Mark_12_Mod_X_Special_Purpose_RifleBMT
Last edited by BMT; 07/21/10.
"The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II
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Campfire Regular
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I have a hard time hitting beyond 800 yards with a 20" AR and 75gr BTHP...
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I have a hard time hitting beyond 800 yards with a 20" AR and 75gr BTHP... I have a hard time hitting WITH ANYTHING beyond 800 . . . . . 
"The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
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I don't have a hard time hitting past 800... but its not going to be easy or even smart to try it with something like a 75bthp in 223....
Longer ranges as a norm, call for a bit different approach.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I have a hard time hitting beyond 800 yards with a 20" AR and 75gr BTHP... I have a hard time hitting WITH ANYTHING beyond 800 . . . . . You wouldn't with a GPMG and tracer....in fact you could hits lots of things past 800m,; just a few that were additional to what you were aiming at!!
Last edited by Pete E; 07/22/10.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2002
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True . . . .
But beyond 600 things get much more dicey (even in 308).
As one sniper friend stated about the sandbox: "nobody is ever really zeroed at 600."
BMT
"The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II
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Joined: Apr 2001
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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True . . . .
But beyond 600 things get much more dicey (even in 308).
As one sniper friend stated about the sandbox: "nobody is ever really zeroed at 600."
BMT But sniper rifles don't have a "beaten zone"!
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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My brother believed that firepower could come from a box, then he joined the service and realized firepower comes on belts.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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True . . . .
But beyond 600 things get much more dicey (even in 308).
As one sniper friend stated about the sandbox: "nobody is ever really zeroed at 600."
BMT 500 and 600 you really can more or less be zero'd in if its a fixed distance... its beyond that.. 800 is usually fairly easy... but beyond that it gets iffy for me. Folks will say I have wind flags and they don't.... but if you use what you have,there are a TON of windicators out there to call the wind... and you can usually get that within 1 moa of being right out to 600... that usually leaves enough error room for a hit...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I don't think the 223 was designed with long range shooting in mind. I look at the larger calibers and 20 rounds for my 338/378 weight 2 pounds. Wonder how many .223 I could have for 2 pounds?
It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Member
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Maybe the Army liked M1 carbines but the Marines threw them away because they wouldn't work in sand. I got that from somebody who was there.
Patton said the Garand was the best battle weapon ever devised.
The .223 isn't cutting in Afghanistan. Good city weapon but no good for all around situations.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I don't think everyone here quite realizes how much firepower an infantry platoon of 30 some guys have.
An infantry platoon of has a minimum of Two javelins, two M240B's, six M249SAW's, six M203's and six M14's. Not to even mention they probibly have a FO calling fire for them. If they're in Helmand or Kandahar they most likely have been plussed up two M2 50 cals and two M19 grenade launchers. The PL, PSG, SL's, TL's, assistant gunners, medics, FO and the rto are the ones with M4's. They pretty much have other stuff to worry about than doinking bad guys at 700 meters.
And I promise you first hand a M4 kills shat as far out as you can hit with them. Which realisticly is over 500 meters with issue optics.
Spec ops use pretty much anything they want. Which if you are there you'll see many, many, MANY chose the M4.
Some REMF Major writing a BS paper for his CASQ course means nothing to me.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I don't think everyone here quite realizes how much firepower an infantry platoon of 30 some guys have.
An infantry platoon of has a minimum of Two javelins, two M240B's, six M249SAW's, six M203's and six M14's. Not to even mention they probibly have a FO calling fire for them. If they're in Helmand or Kandahar they most likely have been plussed up two M2 50 cals and two M19 grenade launchers. The PL, PSG, SL's, TL's, assistant gunners, medics, FO and the rto are the ones with M4's. They pretty much have other stuff to worry about than doinking bad guys at 700 meters.
And I promise you first hand a M4 kills shat as far out as you can hit with them. Which realisticly is over 500 meters with issue optics.
Spec ops use pretty much anything they want. Which if you are there you'll see many, many, MANY chose the M4.
Some REMF Major writing a BS paper for his CASQ course means nothing to me.
Ummmm . . . . Doooooddd . . . .. This is the Internet. Reality based opinions need not apply.  BMT
"The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II
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Joined: Nov 2002
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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True . . . .
But beyond 600 things get much more dicey (even in 308).
As one sniper friend stated about the sandbox: "nobody is ever really zeroed at 600."
BMT 500 and 600 you really can more or less be zero'd in if its a fixed distance... its beyond that.. 800 is usually fairly easy... but beyond that it gets iffy for me. Folks will say I have wind flags and they don't.... but if you use what you have,there are a TON of windicators out there to call the wind... and you can usually get that within 1 moa of being right out to 600... that usually leaves enough error room for a hit... I don't necessarily disagree. But it is almost impossible to zero for conditions that change constantly. My friend was referring to being Deployed from lower elevation to Highlands, to flat desert (mirage), to valleys, etc. He and his unit eventually decided that a 100 yard zero with a good dope book was more useful. If I Understand his assignment, he spent 14 months in 18 places, doing Scout/Security/Countersniper work for engineers who were repairing roads, etc. They would finish a repair and move 100 yards to 100 miles. If a guy is stationed at a base and shoots (practice) to known registration points regularly, the opinion will be different. Good Shooting, BMT
"The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II
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Campfire Regular
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I've not had the pleasure of speaking to a lot of War Two vets about the technical details of their service, but a friend grew up with their kids and told me that the Garand had a lot of detractors at the time. There was even a Time magazine article about teething problems. The M1 Carbine was a favorite and didn't get it's poor rep until the Korean War.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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...I am a Vietnam veteran USAF weapons specialist... Impressive......more or less. That is freaking funny!
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The website is up and running!www.lostriverammocompany.com
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BMT: ref: .223 "This is the Internet.
Reality based opinions need not apply"...now is as good a time to
start to get real and not be "politically correct". Homesteader.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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From what I've read over the years, a lot of the cartridge/arms choices are based on politics, connections, ones history with other government contracts, and a little good/bad luck on demonstration day.
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