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A far cry from this "they are now, by law, the agressor and are responsible for any deaths that occur during the commision of those crimes. From any cause I might add." I still dont buy it, but i'll do you a favor and look it up anyways.

E, that is soooo true of Kalifornia. they will blast you in court for doing what needs to be done. however, in the example given of shooting three times and killing two innocent bystanders, it makes me wonder why the hell he decided to shoot in the first place.

The felony murder statutes in the vast majority of jurisdictions would indeed place any person who is in the act of committing a felony in jeopardy of prosecution for first degree murder if an innocent person dies as a result of the crime. So, yes, the bad guy could be charged with murder if an innocent person is killed in a crossfire with a good guy, no matter who fires the fatal shot.

So far, so good...

But the law also makes YOU responsible for each and every shot YOU fire duing an armed encounter. You must be fully justified in the eyes of the law in firing every bullet that leaves the muzzle of your weapon.

If you kill an innocent bystander while responding to an armed threat (and for that matter, even if you only kill the assailant) you will be the subject of a homicide investigation. The law will be what the prosecuting attorney and judge say it is, not what you think (or hope) it is based on your training and experience, no matter how extensive or how limited it may be.

If you kill an innocent person, you will almost certainly be arrested, booked, fingerprinted, jailed, interviewed and will need to hire an attorney. You will likely be charged with a crime in criminal court. You will be fortunate if it is "only" manslaughter or negligent homicide. If you are having a REALLY bad day, it will be a charge of murder.

If you are charged with a crime, it will cost tens of thousands of dollars to defend yourself in court. If you lose, you go to prison. Appeals take years, are expensive and usually fail.

Whether you win or lose, you will be sued, and will suffer the costs of defending yourself in civil court. If you "win", you only lose the cost of defending yourself. If you lose, you become a pauper.

There isn't any limit to the number of people who can be charged with a crime if an innocent person is killed. The bad guy will go to jail...but you could wind up in the cell next to him.

And, even if you walk free after this debacle, you will have the rest of your life to ponder the guilt that will be yours for having taken an innocent life.

Exactly. Im going to walk away from this thread as the misguided people with funny facts is too much for one day.

Its not real pal. Even so, some of us dont live in fantasy world where every time we pull the trigger it hits center mass. Use a FATS simulator sometime and really see what you will do when you're not standing behind a bench shooting at paper targets.

is that the one where you use a real gun and it shoots a lazer at the screen with a live video feed?

if so, i have used one. center mass is pretty easy to hit in those cases except when the guy ran. he took two shots to hit.

Very similar. Im sure you did just as well with your force on force training. Good for you. You are now cleared to carry FMJ ammo and without any regard to your surroundings, but only in California where killing innocent bystanders is justifiable.

I'm pretty much with Bristoe on this one. As he said, a 1911 and 230-grain hardball are a system. Using any other bullet profile risks shortcutting design aspects the system no matter how many times you read that polishing the feed ramp will cure all ills.

There are times when I want a carry load with maximum penetration. Maybe I'll need to shoot through a car door, or a Lazy Boy, a table - who knows.

The other times I usually carry Hydra-Shoks.

Are you firing to save your own butt because you can't walk back out the door, or are you firing to save the clerk? If it's the latter, you weren't justified in the first place, I believe.

I was shooting my pulse laser cannon which apparently isnt legal in California anyways. Next time i'll just set my Phaser to stun just in case I miss. The point of the story is, it doesnt matter if im justified or not, if I kill an innocent bystander, I will be charged no matter if my intention were good or not.

Doesnt matter who I was trying to save, if Im in a store with a man shooting people for no reason I can easily justify that my life and any other person in that store were in danger. Im sure in California its proabbaly against the law to protect yourself but thats why im smart enough not to live their to begin with. I do like that fact that I can kill innocent bystanders and not pick up the tab for it though.

Actually, you're required to flee if possible in all 50 states, and shooting to protect others only covers family/friends.

Hopefully no one is taking all this internet chatter as advice; the best plan is to just spend an hour with an attorney.

I agree with your statement about internet advice, but there are quite a few states that have eliminated the duty to retreat (Castle Doctrine) and allow, but do not require, a person who is in a place where he or she has the right to be to stand his/her ground and meet force with force. Tactically it might be the wisest thing to flee, but in those states it is not legally required. You need to know the law in your specific state.

There is nothing in the law anywhere that restricts the defense of others to family and friends only. And there is nothing in the law anywhere that REQUIRES anyone to come to the defense of another person, regardless of relationship. You always do that at your own risk (physical, criminal and civil). You can legally just walk away rather than shooting to defend them.

Family and friends are probably less likely to sue you or testify against you if you wind up hitting them accidentaly, but the law regarding the use of deadly force makes no distinctions regarding friendship or kinship.

Right you are, I totally spaced the castle doctrine changes. Time for me to hit the books again...

Wow....yet another one.

I have no idea what you're trying to communicate there.

Over penetration "Lawsuits" do you have any acctual cases to point to?
LEO's miss about 80 percent of the time, I think that the bullets that miss pose a much greater threat than any bullet with so called "over penetration"

Doctor Martin Fackler (former haead of the Army's Wound Ballistics Lab and Presently President of The International Wound Ballistics Assc.) stated that LEO's are injured or killed by under penetration and that is a far greater risk than any "so called over penetration"

Most if not all of the FMJ military rifle bullets used today do indeed expand and/or fragment. The US Marines recently announced that they purchased 2 million rounds of "open tip" ammo for thier soldgers. These bullet do indeed expand and/or fragment. The snipers use SMK's and these bullets do indeed expand and.or fragment on impact, this fact is readily admitted in the JAG's ruling. There are no treaty's that the US is a part of that prevent the use of expanding bullets

You 2 are the ones that are wrong on this one. E is correct on the law and it is that way around the country not just in Ca. Although you are still responsible for your bullets final destination in Civil court

You are wrong on this, many states ar Are "castle" doctrine states and fleeing is not required