Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire John Glenn

hunter,
be sure and add your post.Looks as though you lost ur composure on that last one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I am now more convinced than ever that vouchers are a very good idea.

I WAS IN VN AND I OPPOSE THIS ACTION IN IRAQ, AND HAVE SINCE BEFORE IT WAS STARTED. I ALSO FULLY SUPPORT THE TROOPS BOTH MORALY AND WITH MONETARY/PHYSICAL SUPPORT.

They are TWO seperate entities altoghther, the troops DID NOT start this war, THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION DID! The troops are fighting for their lives everyday, and they are doing their duty with great honor and dedication. The Bush administration is USING theM very badly and is lucky to have such a loyal force, they need to stop abusing the power over them and bring them home, NOW. We have better things to do with our national treasure, both our fine men and women in the service and the money the .gov bleeds from us at every paycheck. We still have people living in destroyed homes, tents and other places instead of their homes right here in the hurricane devastated areas hit just last year.

There were NO wmd's as was used as an excuse to start the war, it was not our duty to remove Saddam because he was a "bad man", the Iraqui people were the ones that needed to change their government if THEY REALLY wanted to. WE ARE NOT THE WORLD PO-LICE DAMMIT!

You want to talk about moral responasbility, why not clean our own house before volunteering to be janitor to the world. Let us take care of OUR people that need a way up here at home, feed the truly needy and give reasonable health care at reasonable cost to all. NOT by raising taxes, but by spending our money at home instead of abroad. Use the military to control our borders so HONEST immigration can occur and the illegals are CUT OFF!

If our government was honest they would take back OUR interest in the oil WE found and developed and just pay fair price to those that would have NOTHING had we and the British and Dutch companies found an developed. No that ain't stealing, it is sharing the wealth in a moral manner.

We had NO right to be in Vietnam any more than we do in Iraq, that is a fact of life, but it is HISTORY, time to move on and LEARN for a change.

Japanese internees WERE AMERICAN CITIZENS when they were ripped from their homes, jobs and business' and interned, that has NOTHING to do with what happened in Vietnam, I do not understand how you connect that one. This war JUST LIKE Vietnam is moraly WRONG! The military fighting it are doing what they swore to do, obey the orders of those appointed over them, and doing it well, even if they are being abused in their use. They, on the pointy end of the stick are not politicians, armchair commando's or mercenaries. They are our future and need be treasured rather than wasted in such a manner. If this country was attacked I would crawl my crippled azz to the lines if on our soil, or back the government (as opposed to the troopers) to the hilt any wau I could.

For the right to say these things many thousands of men, women, children and even I over the past 227 years have paid for in real blood and in many cases with their very lives. So don't tell me I can't oppose the war and support the troops at the same time. I can and DO!

Hunter, thanks for verifying why you arent qualified to be a teacher. Nice mud slingiing. You really need to refresh "our" Nam history, because you really mis represent the Nam war implying LBJ didnt start the war, like putting some excuse on his record, of course he didnt start it. The French even know that. But the record stands that the Nam was went from advisors to a full blown war effort under LBJ's administration.

Let's get back to the real issue at hand, was the mission just, yes it was. But trying to lay serious blame on Republicans for Nam is BS. Nixon got us out of there, worked for me. But I would rather of had a succcess, and it would have been were it not for the efforts of our liberal press, hippie draft dodging anti war march's, and types like Kerry and Fonda giving the North Vietnamese "hope" and reason to prolong the war. The fact is, the North was on the verge of surrender, and the above gave them pause to persue the war and eventually win.

Now who is so proud?

Finally, tell all your teacher buddies for the rest of my life, I will vote against tenure, teacher's unions, I will vote for vouchers. and I am in complete favor of making a teacher prove their capability over time. You havent impressed me at all, and your mouth verifies my thoughts.

You keep waving your 25 years experience as a teacher around like it is a badge or gives you some insight into the minds of children. My mom was a teacher, my aunt is a university prof. I have a B.S. in business admin. My cousin teaches in a ca. university, my daughter is a H.S. teacher, my son has a four year degree, my mother in law retired from teaching at a state university, and my sister in law teaches 4th and 5th grade kids. My wife owns and runs a large day care center, ( 100 plus children ) I have worked with kids a good part of my life through youth sports, high school baseball. as well as being a father. You can say and believe anything you want, however, kids are extremely bright, but they know nothing of current events except what they hear bits and pieces of, they know nothing about true history, geography. From what I have seen personally, what they know and understand is what they hear and learn in the classroom from teachers that have a biased point of view. Your classroom might be different, some are, but I doubt it. I do believe you feel you are un biased, I truly do, but you aren't. As far as money going to the schools...in Ca. alone we are pouring more than 50 billion $$ into it every year with little to no results. Money won't change anything, it hasn't yet and never will untill the Greedy Teachers Union lets go. There is plenty of money for the most powerful union in Calif. It's just not going where it needs to go. A teacher buddy of mine complain the other day that the kids in school are so behind in their basic math and reading skills that they were having a rough time getting the kids to pass the NCLB tests. He is going to have to go back and work on real studies just so his kids will pass. My daughter is moving out of ca. and going to open a tutoring business because she is tired of the Teachers Union political posturing and plundering of the money that does come to the schools.
BTW....F911 is a joke, as a teacher you actually believe that garbage, then you are as hopeless as the rest.

T Lee, I am not advocating or defending GW Bush, or the Iraqi war.
OK, how do you support the troops, with a yellow ribbon on your car?

If you take to the street in a show of public dissention that gives support to their enemy, would that be supporting the troops?

I have no arguments with anybody who disagrees with the U.S involvement anywhere, but once the troops are in, supporting them doesn't include reinforcing enemy troop moral, or making movies to whip up the public.

--------------------------------------
Japanese internees WERE AMERICAN CITIZENS when they were ripped from their homes, jobs and business' and interned, that has NOTHING to do with what happened in Vietnam.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely Right! It was wrong what the U.S did to them, that is my point.

I'm not linking them and Viet Nam together, rather why are school teachers so happy to bring in the Japanese to educate the kids as to what we did wrong as a nation, but then hide the results of what happened when we pulled out of Viet Nam?
The South Vietnamese feel just as betrayed by U.S policy as the internees did, do why aren't we telling their story to the kids?
It has become the national mantra that Viet Nam was a "wrong war", so how would it look to the kids when a South Vietnamese citizen comes in to the classroom and says he feels betrayed by U.S running out on them & tells of the atrocities by the North after we left. Gee, that might sound as if it was wrong for us to have left Viet Nam, we can�t have that.

"We need to clean our own house" Hey, I have no problem with being an isolationist, and if enough would feel that way than you would be able to elect somebody who feels that way.
----------------------------------------------------
There were NO wmd's as was used as an excuse to start the war, it was not our duty to remove Saddam because he was a "bad man", the Iraqi people were the ones that needed to change their government if THEY REALLY wanted to. WE ARE NOT THE WORLD PO-LICE DAMMIT-----------------------------

And if Germany wouldn�t have declared war on the U.S, FDR would have had to find an excuse to go to Europe.

I don�t agree, Iraq was a country so suppressed, you had people afraid to come out of their homes, afraid to even suggest to a neighbor that they should overthrow Saddam.

Ok T, a little hypothetical so I can feel you out.

1944, we never went to war with Germany, but we know of the camps, what do we do, clean our own house & not police the world?

1939 The Japanese are slaughtering Chinese by the millions, should we keep the oil coming because it is not our place?

1950 The cold war is on. It is fact that the Russians are expanding and trying to spread communism, do we let this go unchecked? Where would we be if we did?

When it comes to expansion for oil or money I am on board with you, but human rights? No, I'm proud when this country stands up for that.

You are right; they botched the WMD's. I understand your point of view, but I would have supported ousting Saddam for the reasons of torturing and slaughtering his own people, just like I supported what Clinton did in Bosnia.

There has been ample time to fix our own house, and it doesn't get done; now I have to ask, what does one have to do with the other? Pulling out of, or never going into Iraq is not going to stop the hemorrhaging down at the border.

I understand your points, and you may be right, & I may be wrong, time will tell.

MMarktello,

I'm not T. Lee but I'll answer a few of your questions as best I can. I believe T. Lee is an advocate for the type of Constitutional Government originally envisioned by our founders. A government that avoided international intrigue and foreign wars. The questions you pose about the Germans, Soviets, and Japanese are good questions, but look at the history a bit.

The conditions that led to NAZI Germany and your scenario may well have failed to occur if America had not become involved in W.W. I where there were no compelling moral issues and no reasons at all to become involved. Had we not intervened, Germany probably would have staved off defeat, or won outright victory and the NAZIs and Hitler may never have happened.

Likewise, with the Russian Communists. The Germans smuggled Lenin into Russia because they needed the Russians out of W.W.I.. Part of the reason they were so desperate that they would risk world wide Communist Revolution was because they knew we were about to come into the war, and they needed to free up troops to deliver a knock out blow in the West before we got there.

Lastly, the origins of the Japanese Imperial monster that ravaged China was directly traceable to 1855 and Commondore Perry's forcible entry into Tokyo Bay. We forced the Japanese to modernise so that we could sell them our goods. They learned about Western society only too well.

Is America evil? Of course not (at least not anymore than any other nation). But do foreign interventions have unintended consequences that may not be fully understood for many many years? Yes. Our foray into Iraq will have ripple effects for centuries. We may have unleashed the train of events that leads to our destruction. The thing that bothers me so much about it is that we did it under false pretenses (WMDs) and with so little national debate.

The stakes are too high to go around tilting at windmills called freedom and democracy. Think about it, they really don't mean that much here and why should we get ourselves killed and risk catastrophe if others aren't willing to fight their own battles.

As a student, I had a 6th grade math teacher who couldn't figure out how to do a section of problems-even with the teachers edition answers. When I could get the answers, she asked me to tell her how I figured them out. I couldn't teach her how to do them, so we SKIPPED that section of the math book. Another time, our high school english teacher said" you can't have a language without a written version" I asked her how the Native americans did it - Before Sequoia. She didn't know. I have Uncles with Doctorates of Education,my parents WERE both teachers at one time, I have an I.Q. in the 140's(not that it matters-except you can skip the stupid comments you throw out to anyone who disagrees with you) and I think teachers need to compete for their jobs like EVERYONE ELSE. Vouchers, elimination of tenure and anything else that will encourage this are all approved. If you can't teach, you should be gone- at least if the children are as important as you SAY they are. As far as pay raises for teachers- all for it. Of course that means that more qualified people than you will be teaching, and you'll be looking for a job.

Hey RiverRider,
I challenge you to give me an intelligent complete detailed explanation of just what the voucher is. Come on, without doing some quick research, what really is the voucher system. The NEA (National Education Association) didn't endorse Bush, and becasue of his support to the voucher system and how anti-public schools it is. The Afl-cio didn't either. He's lost so many jobs. The Washington Post didn't even endorse him. Wow. He didn't run or win on his record. How about his stand on the enviorment, social security, medicade/care???? Come on now tell what a great president his is. He's a duffus, and you'll never admit it but Clinton will go down as one of the best presidents in history. Yeah, I don't condone him for his moral, values, etc., but we never had it so good as we did under Clinton. I wouldn't expect you narrow minded, unobjective Republicans to own up and admitt that. Gov. Taft got an F for failing grade in his job too. Mainly because of his support of the voucher system too. His cuts in education and everywhere else. The only good thing I can find about Bush and Taft are the fact that they won't be able to run again. Uurrrrrawwwwwwwwww. I never said "go Kerry," I just said, "anyone but Bush." And don't even talk to me about Vietnam. As one who spent 10 months and 29 days there in 1970 and 1971 as a machine gunner on a gun truck, you don't need to tell me anything about that war. Been there, did that. Never to be forgotten. Got the physical and mental scars to prove it.
P.S. Tell the folks in California who voted down the voucher system 27 times by a 3 to 1 margin just how good they think it is. If it is so good why does it keep getting voted down all the time everywhere. Charter schools, vouchers, pilot schools, call it what you want, Bush trys to disguise it as other things. It isn't working. No child left behind he started. What a joke. He started it and didn't finance it. It may appear as he does, but the money going into it has be bleed off of other programs. Those programs now hurt too. His funding program is actually illegal and unconstitutional too. Hey, don't believe me, check it out for yourself. But as narrow minded as you guys are, you wouldn't believe it if it bit you on the nose. Our schools are hurting so bad from all the Rep. cuts. And some wonder why we are behind in math, science, etc. compared to the Japs, etc. Did you know that our scores represent all of our students, not just the selected elite as of the Jap representation. We test them all. all levels and post the results that represent all of them. I'm proud to say that out of 625 school districts in the state of Ohio, our district is one of only 18 to be given a rating of 'excellent'. Do you know what that means and how a school gets a rating like that? I doubt it. Don't try to tell the doctor how to do brain surgery. Education is my job, and you're on my turf now. My mother in law is a retired teacher and principal, and also a former 6 year member on the Ohio State Board of Education, my father in law is also a retired teacher/principal, my sister in law teachers kindergarten, my wife is a former teacher, now principal of two elementary schools, alone with several cousins, aunts, uncles too. My daughter is in her third year of college studying special education. We are a family of educators. So don't even think you can tell me something about education. You spout off opinions, but I deal with the true and facts. You should try that too, but then you wouldn't like what you found.
Any teacher who voted for Bush was voting to cut their own throat. You'd be surprise at how many teachers don't know and understand what the voucher system is and what it does. And that's shame.So come on you self professed educational expert, tell me all about the voucher system. It is clear you know nothing about vouchers and education. Come on, tell me. Voucher are the worst thing that could ever happen to public schools.
Hunter01

"Clinton will go down as one of the best presidents in history?"
WOW!
You really mean that?

Teachers don't know everything, and to put down a teacher for what you knew over them, is unfair. We put our heads out there on the chopping block each and every day for all of you to take cracks at.
I'm all for holding teachers accountable. Good teachers don't have to worry about being held accountable. I have no problem with a system of checks and balances. Am I worried, not at all. I have continuing contract, tenure, a master +15 on the pay scale. I don't worry about losing my job. I go, I teach my butt off as well as most other teachers. Sure every industry has a few bad apples in it. I've seen them too in the school. I've felt for some students who have had to put up with a weak teacher, but don't we have that everywhere. I, as well as most others in my building hold the rank of Highly Quaified Teacher. You only get that after you've proven to of earned it. I'm a mentor too. It take first year teachers under my belt and help them learn the ropes of teaching and the classroom. My masters degree is in Teacher Competency. Sure all those things don't automatically make me or anyone else a good teacher. That is proven on the front lines of the classroom. Getting staight A's and having an IQ of 140 doesn't make you automatically great at what you do either.
Voucher aren't working, pure and simple. They drain off money from the already hurting public schools. I hope I've help shed a little light on thing for you so you can better understand education and the schools.
Hunter01

Like I said, didn't think you'd own up or ever admit to it. Got your head to far down in the sand. Doesn't matter what you think. History will, (already has) shown that.
Hunter01

Interesting comments all.

hunter01, paragraphs would make your posts easier to read; the Enter key is your friend.

Right, and you know me and my teaching qulifications right. You know about all my teacher of the year awards, outstanding teachr awards, student's favorite teacher awards. You've been in my classroom. You've seen me teach. You know how much of a terrible teacher I am and how my students hate me becasuse I'm such a bad teacher. You wouldn't know me if you passed me on the street. That last comment make you a very large hypocrite. Wow, if you only knew. And you don't.

Thanks for the advice. I'll try hard next time. How am I doing?

And by the way, RiverRider, I'm still waiting.

I'll give you credit for defending your position, but don't become forum fodder.

Wait, wait, wait away. I do not feel compelled or even challenged by your demand that I explain the voucher system to you, so feel free to impune my intellect all you wish. I couldn't possibly care less.


"It is clear you know nothing about vouchers and education. Come on, tell me. Voucher are the worst thing that could ever happen to public schools."

Wow, you must have some incredible powers if you can assess my knowledge of vouchers and education based on a single comment. But I have powers too, so think about what I know about your intellect after having read several thousand words of your ramblings here.

"Voucher are the worst thing that could ever happen to public schools."

...and perhaps public schools are the worst thing that ever happened to the Republic throughout its history. The marxist takeover of education in this country appears to be complete. Up with vouchers! I'll be damned if I will continue to willingly support public education when public educators think they can continue to shove whatever marxist tripe they wish down our kids' throats.

Vouchers, yes! The public schools are a complete, abject FAILURE.

Have a nice day, hunter01, and don't expect another response from me because there won't be one. You don't merit the time of day from me, and I've wasted far too much time on your nonsense already.

Cossatotjoe, thanks for the fill in, pretty darn close to what I would have said, maybe a bit nicer too..................well I try to keep it civil really.

MMarketello,

First, Cossatotjoe really did catch the spirit of my belief's in his post, saved me a bunch of typing.

We should NOT have been in Vietnam, period. Our pulling out.......that is a whole 'nuther ball of wax I am afraid is about to be repeated in the near future, again NOT the fault of the troops, but the misuse of them in the first place. It was right that we left 'Nam, we did not belong there in the first place, what happened when we left would have happened sooner or later anyway, that I firmly believe. Actually bringing thos VN folks in to talk would be a good idea, might wake up some folks to the foolishness our government is wont to entangle us in BEFORE it is too late.




That I firmly believe is due to the fact that the American Public is constantly being side tracked with constant "Crisis items at home" and "World threats". Ever see the movie "Wag the Dog"? I personally think GWB should be impeached for STARTING A WAR without a declaration of war by the full congress, THAT IS HOW IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE DONE, according to the constitution anyway. Same goes for Truman on KOREA and JFK & LBJ over VIETNAM. Eisenhower advised against getting further involved even though he had authorized aid and advisors to be there, he forsaw the quagmire it could become only as a General was capable of.

BTW, I consider myself a Constitutional libertarian, but to be honest I do test out an isolationist on all those cute little tests the various groups have to convince you to their way of thinking. That I believe is for the simple reason that I believe that unless some entity is "A clear and Present Danger" to this country or any of it's citizens, LEAVE THEM THE HELL ALONE TO FIGHT THEIR OWN DEMONS! We have more than enough of our own, and as a nation of unbrideled consumers we are pricing ourselves out of the world market, losing income on a daily basis that would get a person in the private sector fired in a NY Minute, and still squandering OUR YOUNG PEOPLE and TAX money on foreign entanglements that will gain us NOTHING! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE I ASK?

hunter
Let me make a couple things clear for you, that you are obviously over-looking. When someone suggests that you are impressed by the abilities of impressionable, immature minds they are saying that you do two things, neither is praise-worthy. Nor is it a compliment.

You are impressed because, from your perspective, they are VERY smart. But the bad part is that you are impressed by what they "learn" under your incredible tutelage. You present "facts" and when they parrot your "feelings" you get all warm and fuzzy.

As a shrink I can assure you the pre-teen and early teen mind has been studied extensively. It is a critical time in the development of their thought patterns and techniques. While it is admirable to give them freedom to choose the correct answer it is very much against human nature for you to be doing so. Your bias is obvious.

As to the awards; Who was on the selection committee? Let me guess... was it a bunch of liberal educators? Students that you did a particularly good job of leading; misleading? Also, who were you being compared to? I didn't catch any reference to a state or city you might be teaching in. If you are in California it is understood...

It is sad you have such strong and wrong opinions and you get to teach. You do not make any argument for your facts. For example, you have been asked repeatedly which parts of a certain movie you find false. You were only asked for the 2% answer and you have not answered it. But you have attacked others suggesting they did not see it.

Something for you to consider is the progression of the mind as it matures, through puberty and into mature thought patterns. You clearly stopped short of the rational mind and are muddling around in the idealism of irrational youth.

Also, I sincerely pray that you do not teach English.
maytag

Yep, just as I thought. YOU DON'T KNOW THE FIRST THING ABOUT THE VOUCHER SYSTEM. You proved that to everyone in you last post. You are a hypocrite. You speak about something you don't know crap about.
Any you and your ignorant comments are my entertainment. Thanks for the fun.
Hunter01