Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR 30-30 questions for BPCR

Hey black powder gurus:

Let's assume that I have a 30-30 project in the works and it will be destined for one bullet/charge combination.

What bullet type, powder, and barrel length would you recommend for a utility 30-30WCF, that may see service as a boar gun and a deer rifle. Max range 100yds.

This will go in a brake action type of gun.

I think the barrels are 12 twist, ITMAD.

Don't ask the BP gurus. The .30-30 never was a bp cartridge and does not do particularly well as one. If I were going to try to fake it, I would use all the 3fg I could drop tube into it, compress to the bottom of the neck, add a wad and seat bullet).

A bp loaded .30-30 would be a pretty marginal hog rifle in my estimation. I may be wrong about that, but that's where I stand now.

A .38-55 or better might work. Even a .32-40 perhaps. But I would look for at least a .38-55 myself.

trying to be nicer, so I removed sarcasm...


Anyway, I was always impressed with 30 cal bullets from a 30-30 for black bear, not sure I would marginalize them for boar - unless its the BP pressure that would inhibit that train a thought.

thinking of a 38-55 for the next build (see sig line)

So, 30 cal in BP - bad idea?

Well, I think a .30 cal in a strongly bottlenecked cartridge is going to be a real challenge to get to do what you want, and not best for biggish creatures if you ever get it sufficiently accurate. Not saying impossible, but just not a great launch point, even for those with some experience. The .28-30 might be a bit better as it is straight cased, but darn small in my mind. But I might be wrong there. I've not used one.

I think the .30-30 is one of the more unappreciated smokeless cartridges. It was a good elk rifle, and still is, in my opinion, but not so hot as a bp cartridge.

You might go to bpcr.net and see what some others have to say. There is not much traffic here.

Can't see sig lines (not even my own )

30 wcf (30-30 to the unwashed) was the first successfull SMOKELESS winchester cartridge.
You can load it with black but accruacy is hard to come by, fouling is a nightmare.
Run it with rl15 and speer jacketed bullets for hunting,and .311 diameter cast bullets with 5744 for cast bullets.

Funny that the 32 Winchester Special was designed to be loaded with either black or smokeless......
You're just gonna have a very low powered 94/336 that is a royal pain to clean.

read the OP. It's going in a break action.


Anyway - I think ya'll have me off the BP. We'll start the post elsewhere and see what the general recs are.

Sorry Bosslady but that's just internet legend that like alot of internet legends is horsepucky.
Here's what Winchester said about their new 32 special cartridge in 1915

Sorry Ranch13, but that may but what Winchester said in 1915, but Winchester's first mention of the 32 Special was in their catalog # 68, 1902, 13 years earlier than your 1915 edition.

It says: "The 32 Winchester Special Cartridge is offered to meet the demand of many sportsmen for a smokeless powder cartridge of larger caliber than the .30 Winchester and yet not so powerful as the .30 US Army, and which could be loaded with black powder and give satisfactory results. The .32 Winchester Special Cartridge meets all these requirements." Farther on the same catalog states "With a charge of 40 grains of black powder, the .32 Winchester Special develops a velocity of 1385 foot seconds, which makes it a powerful black powder cartridge."

So, it's not internet legend nor is it horsepucky.

Craigster, lets see it..... Until then it's the same as the same ol regurgitated stuff..aka horsepucky
Even if they did suggest a bp load for the cartridge, they stated in both books it's a smokeless cartridge to be bigger than the 30wcf but not as powerful as the 30 US.....

What part of the catalog description don't you understand? It clearly states that the 32 Spl was a smokeless powder cartridge that could be reloaded with black powder and give satifactory results. The fact that it's larger than the 30 WCF but less powerful that the 30 US has nothing to do with its' being able to be loaded with either smokeless or black. That is what you are reffering to as legend or HP, is it not?

Craigster, save your intelligence for those who can read (and might actually load BP cartridges).

Ask him about the ORIGINAL load in the 303 British ..... hint, it was not cordite.

His catalog must be right ..... it is newer!

From the LATEST Federal catalog:
4570AS
45-70 Government
300 / 19.44
Speer� Hot-Cor� HP
Power-Shok�

You'll note the 45-70 comes with smokeless powder and a 300 gr bullet.

Guess the 45-70 500 BP round used by the Infantry for decades was just "horsepucky" too.

Not exactly sure how in your ingorant little mind you got the 303 british or federal factory loads for the 45-70 tangled up with the misinformation you spread about the 32 special.
Now as to who loads and shoots real bp,,, hows about you come out from behind the fake name and such and lets go head to head down thru the score sheets at bpcr shoots this past season?????

Really from here eh ? Well I know the education system is not the greatest but here it is (keeping it easy).

- The 303 Brit was loaded with compressed BLACK powder when first on the scene and worked reasonably well. (As would the 32 Special).
- Because some catalog issued long after a cartridge appeared, does NOT mention BLACK powder, does not mean that the catalog is correct for the entire lifespan of the cartridge. (The Federal 45-70 listing).

Hope that clarifies the (apparently) far to subtle post for you.

Craigster had it right you were WRONG. It would be appropriate to acknowledge that and thank him for informing you of the truth rather than trying to "shoot the messenger" and just looking foolish.

Well up until Craigster puts up the actual catalog and not some drivel in quotes , that misinformation you put out is still horsepuck.

Even if the stuf about blackpowder is in the 1902 catalog, the opening statements in both catalogs are still the same, and Winchester still stated the purpose of the cartrdige was a "smokeless" cartridge more powerful than the 30 wcf ,yet not as powerful as the 30 US.
So twist,bend and shape as you want. You're still wrong about the 32 special and offer no hard proof to show otherwise.

Don't hold your breath.

Yup , figured as much, don't have the hard proof to back up the words......

Ranch13,

One more time, just to make it clear, the 32Spl was new in 1902, not 1915.

The "drivel" included in my earlier post was from an article in Handloader Magazine (June 1999 #199) written by Gil Sengel. Regarding the 32Spl, he wrote, "As with other cartridges that fall into the obsolete category, there is a fair amount of suspect information regarding it's history. We will attemp to dispell this by reffering directly to Winchester catalogs whenever possible." If you'd like, I'd be happy to copy the article and send it to you. You might learn something.

An old guy once told me, don't argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. You may or may not be an idiot, but you have me wondering.

Craigster let us know when the source of your information settles on who and where?

What's to settle? Seems to me "the source of your information" as you say, has pretty much settled it.

PM me an address of some sort and I'll be happy to mail a copy of the article to it. Maybe you'll read it and grace us with a review.

Do you shoot any bpcr or just troll around on the boards?

1. Whether or not I shoot any BPCR or "just troll around on the boards" has nothing to do with the discussion of the 32Spl.

2. Refer back my to earlier post regarding arguing with idiots.

3. End of discussion.

Well cripes just asking a simple question. I guess we'll have to take your response as a no?

Just one point of order the original intent of this thread was to find out about loading the 30-30 with bp,,,,, NOT the misinformation passed along by you about the 32 special.

Being from WY, I understand that some here can NEVER admit they are wrong regardless of the facts. There are still Obama stickers on cars up in Jackson (not Jackson Hole!).
Again, any fool who knows anything about BP and actually shoots it, knows no 30 +- caliber is the ideal for it. Point is it CAN be done and Winchester said it could. Every respected gun writer since then who has agreed is a fool and our boy from the Equality state is right ? UH HUH ! Wonder if he knows the twist in the 32 Special is different from the 30-30 and why ? Ever heard of the late Ken Waters ? Oh yeah, just another dummy gun writer. Buy a copy of PET LOADS, you might become enlightened.

Craigster has it right, this thread is all over.

Hey smart guy, Ken Waters isn't dead.

At least he wasn't a couple of months ago and I find no mention of his passing.

Once again Larry is passing BS to make himself feel better.

.22 CB shorts are OK fine for hogs, dunno why a BP .30-30 wouldn't work. I wouldn't go to the trouble myself, but hey, whatever works for you is fine. BP and straight wall cases are a happier union IMO.

For those who might be interested in more "internet drivel" on BP in the 32 Special:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?111624-32-Winchester-Special-with-Black-Powder

Be sure to read the whole thread.

Once again OldDouches senility rears its ugly head.

After incorrectly stating that Ken Waters is dead OldDouche gets called the liar he is and then he PM's me this little gem.

Hey, bright brat,
posted right here in 2006 REPEAT 2006:

"Quote:

I always respected and enjoyed reading Ken Waters and Bob Hagel's articles and books.... Does anyone know if they are still living?


I talked with Ken about three or four months ago, but he is unable to write (sigh!).

Bob died late last year. "



Doesn't sound like he is doing well, now does it ?

So in OldDouches twisted, bitter brain the fact that Bob Hagel died means that Ken Waters must have died as well.

What a moron!

A couple of years ago I asked a similar question on here and was asking about pyrodex. Someone told me that I could not get enough pyrodex in the case to be dangerous so I loaded up some 30-30's with all of the pyrodex that I could get in the case. I even viberated it to make it settle and then loaded up some 170 grain bullets that I had. They shot ok but was pretty slow. I am on the road and do not have my notes but I am thinking about 1200 to 1400 fps was the best that I could get. This was out of a 94 Winchester and did not dirty the rifle all that bad. miles

I appreciate all the advice, and have decided to stick with smokeless.

I was bordering on admitting to myself it was a stupid question, but once all the 32 Win commentary started to develop, I realize that the moniker of "trouble maker" that my wife has placed on me is a sure truism, even when unintentional.


Carry on gents.

RWE,
It was hardly a stupid question. And the crap by the 32 Win wonderboys only proves that "stupid" really is.

You can't take the blame for this trouble. They earned all by themselves.

RWE

Actually, there is no reason on Earth that a .30 caliber cast lead bullet of say, 180 grains, moving at say, 1300fps, shouldn't easily take a hog, deer, elk or bear!

No reason whatsoever.

Proximity and placement will do the job. Not velocity.

Penetration will be adequate.

Try 777 over a chrono

edited to add: The twist rate will be a bit fast for pure soft lead. With 777 Fouling will not normally be an issue but it's not real black powder. It likes the same lubes you have with smokeless bullets. I have used it to decent results in a .375 Winchester.

Don't expect the world, but give it a shot so you'll know the answer.


Dan

Actually the 32 was built with a slower twist rifling to reduce fowling with BP and lead bullets. That is why a 32 will loose accurcy with smokeless powder when the rifling starts to wear as it was not meant to use high velocity ammo. all old timers such as me have known this for years.

Actually the bp in 32 cal is more about why they chambered the 32-40 up to the depression than anything to do with the special.
By the time the 32 special came out winchester included it in their smokeless reloading data sheets. But they never did offer blackpowder data , nor factory loads for the 32 special, but they did for the 32-40.

The 32 winchester was offered with the slow twist so that reloaders could use BP and lead. bullets and smokeless powder at that time were very expensive, and the farmers used BP to reload most of their ammo including shotguns. BP was about .10c per pound, smokless $1.00 per pound. farm jobs such as working in the hay fields pay was .50c a week. so you can see the reason. BP was favored to reload with. and it would kill as good as smokeless. there were no 1000 yd shots at anything. it would of been frowned on even if you were successful at scoring. I was raised with the idea that 1 shot 1 animal was expected. so a rifle that would handle both were needed and winchester answered the call with the 32 winchester with a slow twist for ease of cleaning and less foeling between shots. I remember bullet molds made of clay, the mold was made in two pieces around a good bullet and baked. it was held togather with raw hide tied. and had a small hole to pour in the lead. slow yes , accurate maby, deadly yes with in range that is why you had to be a hunter first accurcy second.

youall don't know how lucky you are.

You folks back east must of been richer than us out west. Most of the "farm" folk didn't even reload much of anything until the late 50's early 60's. Back at the time of the introduction of the 32 special cartridge and at least until after world war 2 , IF they even owned a centerfire rifle they probably didn't buy 1 box of factory loads but about every 5 years.
Still have a couple of partial boxes of cartridge one of my grandfathers bought for his 30-40. 3rd generation Wyoming rancher staring hard at 60 years old.
You have no idea how thankful I am for what I have and am able to do these days.....

actually I only remember straight walled cases being reloaded at my home with hand made tools. 12 ga and 45/70 and a 25 caliber of some sort . it was as long as the 45 case but don't know what it was except for 25 caliber.shot shell were taken apart and the shot was molded into a ball for deer and then put back togather. shot shells were most avaible shells as were 22 shorts.my ammo was a box of 22 shorts each fall for .15c. 1 shell was used to check my sights,49 brought home 49 animals. I was raised in the mountains of WV.

I've never loaded the .30-30 with black powder, but I've loaded several other calibers that are not normally associated with BP. They've all shot reasonably well and were a lot of fun. I get a kick out of squeezing off a round of black powder aroung a bunch of guys, just to see their reactions. I loaded the 8mm Mauser with Pyrodex RS and it shot decent groups. My Ruger Number One .375 H&H does pretty well with 250 grain bullets intended for the .38-55 Winchester. Both of these calibers shot better groups with the Pyrodex than with Unique.

hehehe wanna turn that 375 into a screamin mimi, load her up with 90 grs of 2 f black and seat one of those 255's on top..
We call it the 38-90 belted bottleneck..

I did. It was fun. LOL. I like that .38-90 Belted Bottleneck.

Man, listening to you guys talk about scrounging for ammunition back in the day is hurting me. I've always been kind of poor, but I never had it that bad. I'm 48 years old, so I didn't have the displeasure of living through the depression. I began reloading when I was 17 and always had ammunition, although there was a period of time when I scavenged lead from the range to melt down and recast into bullets. You guys make me realize how good I've had it.

Fixed that one for ya...

Dan, ol Doc is figuring to get one ot the Williams fp's for his number one, and then we're going to load up some of those express rounds for it, and see if we've got enough elevation to reach the 800 yd line. If it works then he's going to take it to shoot the Quigley this year.
Should be a hoot either way. That much bp really whipps those 255's out the barrel.
Going to try a batch of these 335's I've got cast up for the 38-55 and see how that #1 likesem. Might even dig the Chrony out to have a speed check.

Since I shoot mainly BPCRs, about 15 years ago, I tried straight BP in a Savage 340 bolt gun in 30 WCF with lead bullets. Didn�t work too well as the bore fouled horribly, even with a very soft BP type lube.

Now maybe a different lube and/or larger and more compressed charge of FFFG would have done the trick, but I �dunno�.

I think if you wanted to try BP in a 30 WCF, I would recommend a Duplex load. That will give a �clean burn� to powder charge and greatly alleviate the need to wash the cases.

At one time, I heard of a gentleman who had a .30-30 Straight -- 30 WCF blown out to a straight case -- and it was said that he did quite well with it. But I never heard if he loaded with straight BP and what granulation was or if he loaded a Duplex charge.

As an aside, here�s what I found via Google http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?111624-32-Winchester-Special-with-Black-Powder

"The .32 Winchester Special Cartridge was first listed in Winchester catalogues beginning in 1903, the first rifles and ammunition having been produced in late 1902.

"Here's what Winchester's Catalogue No. 70, dated March, 1903, had to say about the .32 Winchester Special Cartridge:
.32 Winchester Special Caliber.
For Smokeless Or Black Powder.

"We have adapted the popular Winchester Model 1894 rifle to handle the new .32 Winchester Special Cartridge, and are prepared to furnish it in solid frame or take-down style with 26 inch round, octagon, or half-octagon nickel steel barrels with full or half magazines. Rifles for the .32 Winchester Special Cartridge are fitted with a new and specially designed rear sight, which is graduated for either Smokeless or Black powder cartridges. All extras furnished on .30 W. C. F. or .38-55 caliber Model 1894 rifles can be furnished for this gun except extra light weight barrels. Model 1894 .32-40 caliber rifles will not handle the .32 Winchester Special Cartridge, and .30 Winchester caliber rifles cannot be bored up to do so.

"The .32 Winchester Special Cartridge, which we have just perfected, is offered to meet the demand of many sportsmen for a Smokeless powder cartridge of larger caliber than the .30 Winchester and yet not so powerful as the .30 U. S. Army, and which could be reloaded with black powder and give satisfactory results. The .32 Winchester Special Cartridge meets all these requirements. Loaded with Smokeless powder and a 170 grain bullet, it has a muzzle velocity of 2,112 foot seconds, thereby generating a muzzle energy of 1,683 foot pounds. At the standard testing distance of 15 feet from the muzzle, this cartridge, with a full metal patched bullet, will give a penetration of 37, 7/8 inch pine boards. Its trajectory is as follows:

100 yards Trajectory. Height at 50 yards, 1.17 inches.
200 yards Trajectory. Height at 100 yards, 5.60 inches.
300 yards Trajectory. Height at 150 yards, 15.26 inches.

"From these figures it will be readily seen that the advantages of this cartridge are its great striking energy, penetration, high velocity and consequent flat trajectory.

"With a charge of 40 grains of black powder, the .32 Winchester Special develops a velocity of 1,385 foot seconds, which makes it a powerful black powder cartridge. In loading or reloading the .32 Winchester Special with black powder the Winchester No. 5 ½ primer should be used.

"We load this cartridge with Smokeless powder only, but are prepared to furnish primed shells, full metal patched, metal patched soft pointed, or plain lead bullets, and reloading tools, for loading black powder only. We do not advise hand loading or reloading of this cartridge with Smokeless powder by individuals.

"Beginning in March, 1903, and continuing thru June, 1910, Winchester catalogues recommended loading the .32 Winchester Special Cartridge with 40 grains of any of the following powders:
American Powder Mills' "Rifle Cartridge No.2", or "Rifle Cartridge No.3";
Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.G.";
E. I. DuPont de Nemours & Company's "DuPont Rifle F.G.";
Laflin & Rand Powder Company's "Orange Extra F.G."
Comparison with a Hazard Powder Company advertisement c.1903 indicates that "Kentucky Rifle F.G." was approximately equivalent in granulation to today's GOEX FFg.

"Again, beginning in March, 1903, and continuing thru March, 1908, Winchester even published velocity, energy, and trajectory figures for the .32 Winchester Special Cartridge loaded with both Smokeless AND Black powder, even though the cartridge was only available from the factory with Smokeless."