Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Do Exposed Lead Tips of Bullets Melt During Flight?

I always assumed that the 50 gr SX's were melting out of the 219 I. I only fired a few anyway as they were left over from my 222 days and I just went to the Sierra 50 gr SPT and never left as it worked just fine.

My barrel is Buhmiller rechambered from a R2 Lovell. It's a 1-16" twist with a .2228" groove diameter. The load that flew apart is unknown but it may be in my notes. I never loaded this old High Wall all that hot and 3600 fps with a 50 was called good.

I just got off the phone with Sierra and they say the core was vaporizing and coming out of a fractured jacket. That the combination of the low antimony (1.5%) vrs (3%) of the standard bullets, the thin Blitz jacket combined with the friction in the barrel, the rotational forces and the vaporizing lead left the comet tail on the target.

Don
I find it difficult to believe someone from a bullet-maker would overlook the basic functions of melting and go all the way into the latent heat of evaporation, which is additive to the basic latent heat of fusion. Both are huge numbers...

Oh, and then there would be the adibiatic effect of the vaporizing lead, cooling the bullet further (which BTW is what EVERY component, except powder, of the entire equation is trying to do!) and pulling out energy that would be maintained for velocity.

It is absurd to continue to think core melting or evaporation happens, at all, ever. As plain physics and math fail to disabuse you, feel free to maintain your fantasy.
art

Donny, I don't know where you come up with this stuff, but it makes about as much sense as a bullet knocking a deer off it's feet does. There are several bullets out that will explode from rotational spin and frontal air pressure as they are shot at high velocity. One in particular is the Speer 50 grain TNT. At just over 3,500 fps, most won't make it to the target. Instead, they leave a blue cloud about 20 yards down range of the barrel. The bullets are flat out coming apart, they are NOT melting. The jackets are EXTREMELY thin on this bullet and the hollow point is forced open by the extreme air resistance of the high velocity and the bullet erupts. Lead is soft and therefore easily turns to dust at said velocity. I just monkeyed with them again in an 8 twist .22-250. They nuke at about 3,400 fps. This backs up the theory that the faster the rotational spin, the easier a bullet comes apart when a thin jacket is used. The few that do hit the paper don't hit in a consistent place. Two or three will go in the same hole, then a couple will be several inches away and the holes look funny. The bullets are obviously coming apart, or the jacket in the nose area is peeling back on one side. The holes in the paper aren't quite round, but will have a small tare on one side. The bullets are still hitting nose first, but they are on the edge of nuking. Interesting stuff, but they are NOT melting. Nice try though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Flinch

One more thing on the subject. I got 75 grain Vmaxes to nuke at 3,900 fps when shot out of a .25-284 10 twist barrel. The tell tell blue cloud 40 yards from the muzzle and nothing hitting the target were pretty good clues to the state of the bullet in flight <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Now that is a sight to behold. Muley Stalker was with me on just such an occassion. 110 degrees in July. It was hot and the bullets were really struggling to stay together <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> The barrel was hot, the bullets were hot, the air was hot, and the rounds were in the sun <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Flinch

Art,

Sierra did say that the bullet vaporized. I am not sure if they ment liquid lead vaporized or not?

Why don't you run those numbers for us that you have outlined and see how close they come to the melting point?

My load was about 33 to 34 grs of IMR 4064 and the case is a tiny bit bigger than the 225 Win in capacity.

Flinch,

Maybe they are turning to dust? What about the reference over at the AR link that I provided that quotes Hornady as saying that soft lead meplats melt at over 2600 fps?

Why do you bring temperature back into the discussion? Do you mean that the lead core was melted or close to it?

Quote from Allen Gore at AR.


" posted Aug 14, 10:12 PM
One call to Hornady will help with part of this. They state at 2600 FPS that soft lead tips do indeed melt. One call will get you the answer. 1-800-338-3220. We start these bullets from a standing start to several thousands of feet per second, the projectile is heated to temperature far in excess of the melting point of any of it's components and send it spinning at several hundreds of thousand of feet per minute. All of this in just nanoseconds. Something has to give.

Nosler BT's and Hornady V-Max bullet tips are not plastic, they are made of a polymer product, higher melting point than lead. Ever wonder why nylon seals will wear a groove on a crankshaft without melting?

[ 08-14-2002, 23:07: Message edited by: Allen Glore ]"

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I just spoke with Doug at Hornady. He said that the Blitz cores were melting! And that at over 2600 fps soft lead meplats melt also! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

PS: With all due respect Flinch this is how "Donny" comes up with this stuff!

Donny

I knew I'd have to go dig up the formulia, you can find it here, along with a clip from the last thread on this topic.

"This page was given as proof that the bullet temperature stabilizes at 518.67 R.

http://www.desktopaero.com/appliedaero/appendices/stdatm.htm l

I thought I would try it out. I noticed something, namely whether 1mph or 10000000 mph was used, miraculously, the temperature of the projectile remains at 518.7 R, whatever R is."
BTW, R is Rankine, which is a temprature scale where 1deg increase is equil to 1degree F and 0 R is the absolute zero temprature where all atomic movement stops (Kelvin is the metric equivalent). The conversion between Rankine and F is: F = R - 459.67 and R = 1.8 * K where R is Rankine temperature, and K is Kelvin, F is Fahrenheit
So a 518.67R temp is 59F

I don't know if the lead melts or not but it seems that the physics support it.

At maximum pressure, the chamber temps at the base of the bullet from the powder ignition are around 3500 deg., enough to erode and surface crack the steel in the barrel throat. A .22 bullet at 50000psi has around 2000 pounds of pressure exerted on its base, this changes the shape of the bullet and forces it into the under-bored barrel. The force shaping of the bullet causes additional internal heating of the bullet just as bending any metal causes it to get hot.

The bullet travelling down the barrel is continually being reshaped as copper is shredded from its jacket by the friction. The external evidence of this is a barrel that weighs a few pounds getting at least warm. A 50 grain bullet is only .007 of 1 pound, tremendously less mass than a barrel but absorbing basically the same energy. Copper is a relatively efficient conductor of heat so the heat would be transferred to the lead core.

When the bullet leaves the barrel it encounters air. At some velocity, and I don't know what it may be, but the friction with the air will create heat that is greater than the heat loss. From a government link on super sonic aircraft "Any object-airplane, spacecraft, asteroid-speeding through the atmosphere will compress and heat the air in front of it. This heat is inevitably absorbed by the surface of the object."

I don't know what all the right numbers are for a bullet but the physics clearly support melting of the bullet.

I still haven't heard any explanation as to why, if enough heat is generated to melt lead tips/cores, that plastic tips don't melt????

"Nosler BT's and Hornady V-Max bullet tips are not plastic, they are made of a polymer product, higher melting point than lead. Ever wonder why nylon seals will wear a groove on a crankshaft without melting?

[ 08-14-2002, 23:07: Message edited by: Allen Glore ]"

99

Once again, you are quoting unsubstantiated statements from another thread.......these statements prove NOTHING!

Nylon seals wear a grove in a crankshaft because of the abrasive particles that embed in the nylon! While the nylon is both cooled and lubricated by the oil on the crank, the oil does not prevent the abrasives from wearing the crank!

Take a propane torch or even a lighter and hold it to the plastic tip of a bullet and to the lead tip of a bullet and see which one melts first!

I just tried the melting test.......took a 55 grain v-max and a 50 grain blitz and held them in a propane torch flame.....the plastic tip on the v-max ignited within 1 second and was completely burned off in under 5 seconds.....the tip on the blitz didn't show ANY change until 7 seconds in the flame and then it was only slightly deformed........apparently, Mr. Glore doesn't know what he is talking about!

If a bullet is subjected to enough heat to melt the lead tip, then the plastic tips should be completely consumed......I can tell you without a doubt that the plastic tips survive flight and impact......how do I know??? I have recovered the plastic tips from both animals and targets........

Say what you want, but I have SEEN the results with my own eyes.........

I believe bullets can spin apart due to high rotational forces....it is not uncommon for bullets to disintegrate in flight......that doesn't mean they are melting!

Here is another one for you........if bullet cores do melt in flight, why is any lead left in the jacket when it reaches the target?? If the melted core theory was true, a Hornady half jacket bullet would be nothing but a core by the time it reached the target???

Gonehuntin,

It seems that Gore was right on what Hornady said about the lead meplats melting. Do you agree with that?

Then Gore says that the plastic meplats are made from a material that does not melt. Why don't you try to find out what the material is and what their melting points are?

Are you sure that an open flame is the proper way to test these tips? Besides that there has been no question if they melt or not! It's the lead that seems to be the primary topic.

Keep in mind that the bullet in question has no plastic tip!

Another thing Gonehuntin is that I find your approach just a little out of the strike zone so unless you think harder your questions are really not appropiate and not worthy of a reply.

Lets sum it up this way. I saw the melted lead on the targets. Sierra says it happens. Hornady says it happens.

The end.

Don
Try to get off your high horse... to suggest someone asking very good questions is wrong simply because he finds fault with your seriously flawed arguments is somehow not "in the strike zone" is pretty petty... and sad.

I suggested repeatedly that you should do the math. No one has done the simple stuff that will show it cannot happen. I will use your 33gr bullets at 4300... They have about 401 total calories in flight for energy, starting out. Assuming they are 200F is generous toward your side of the argument.

Converting calories to BTUs we find about 1.591344 in the bullet, total. Raising the whole bullet to 621F, the melting point of lead only takes about .0635 BTUs. Latent heat takes another .0547 BTUs. That would seem to suggest there are 1.473144 BTUs left for getting the bullet down range.

Only problem is the bullet arrives at 100 yards with more energy left than that... Oh, and while you are at it, why not consider a couple basic physics laws... How about the one that says something to the effect that energy cannot be transfered from an engine at a lower energy level to an engine at a higher energy level unless work is done on that engine...

The bullet is heating the air it passes through, which of course means it is COOLING the bullet. (The barrel gets hot, guess that means the bullet is too? Nope. The barrel is cooling the bullet.) That energy is removed from the equation. The bullet is also MOVING the air it moves through and that takes more energy.

Bullets are shaped as they are to reduce frictional losses and those differences are pretty easy to calculate... look at the balistic coefficients of equal weight round nose bullets Vs spitzers. Big energy differences down-range equate to frictional LOSSES to the air, not hotter bullets.

The transfer rates for heat in lead are not fast enough to allow lead to melt in the bore from the heat of powder burning nor friction in the barrel.

I am being jerked in to socialize and may have left out a step, but I will check it later... but quite simply, just using the big numbers the bullet does not have enough energy to melt AND reach the target with the elevel of energy it retains...
art

Art,

Go ahead Art and take up Gonehuntins arguments. Present them for me.

As to your repeated request that the "math" be done on this I ask again that since it's your idea that you do it.

"Practical wisdom is only to be learned in the school of experience. Precepts and instruction are useful so far as they go, but, without the discipline of real life, they remain of the nature of theory only."
Samuel Smiles

Don
He did a fine job of presenting valid points... you parroted another board, an unknown poster and clearly someone that does not know what he is talking about.

I have zero doubt fools can be found to agree with you... the myth has been around for a very long time, but you cannot do things that physics disallows... and you are still trying.

Frankly, your erudite quotes do not match your arguments... fortunate for your quotes...
art

"Re: Do Exposed Lead Tips of Bullets Melt During Flight?"

Art,

The quote listed above is the orginal topic. Then a sub topic came up when I said I thought I saw melted lead as comet tails. Do you agree so far?

After a discussion I quoted Gore who turned out to be correct in his quote of Hornady that indeed bullet tips do melt in flight. I also called Sierra and Hornady and confirmed that my observation was correct as well. Agreed?

Then Gonehuntin tried to tie the fact that a plastic meplat he shot did not melt to his "test" that he could set one afire! Also he held up to the light Gores weak analogy of nylon bearings to wear.

Why don't you run the math on the potential energy present in that firearm and how it might relate to the melting of the lead core?

Hornady MAY have said it......doesn't mean it's true.......saying something is true and offering PROOF are not the same! I know what I have seen and, what I have seen with my own two eyes does NOT support what Hornady says.........I'll trust my eyes!




Knowing the melting point or material of construction of the plastic tip is not necessary to prove that his statement is false! He states that the plastic tips have a higher melting point than lead........I did a simple, reproducible experiment that PROVES that his statement is false......try it for yourself!



How would you suggest that we test the tips to see if what Glore says is true?? I have recovered plastic tips intact......they weren't melted.......since they melted long before the lead tips in my test.......what conclusion would you draw???? Are you suggesting that there a "special" type of heat that melts lead but doesn't melt plastic??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Well Duh??? I have a couple of boxes of the bullets in question in my reloading supplies.......that is how I was able to do the test! I noticed, right away, that the blitz bullets don't have a plastic tip........remember, I said the L*E*A*D tip on the blitz didn't even deform in the propane flame until 7 seconds.........I removed the bullet from the flame the instant I saw any change.......guess what.......the lead tip was still intact and nearly identical to every other bullet in the box.......the plastic tip, on the other hand, was G*O*N*E...... burned off.......history......in 5 seconds........what do you make of that????



So what you are saying is........"I can't answer the question so I'll try to BS my way out of it"!!! Are you a democrat???<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Nope.....you saw what you described as a "comet trail"........NOT melted lead! Have you ever worked with melted lead?

[color:"red"] For discussion's sake, Let's *assume* that you are correct.......the cores of bullets melt in flight........ [/color]

How was the "melted lead" that caused your "comet trail" escaping from the bullet jacket???

*IF* the lead was molten and *IF* there was a fracture in the bullet jacket that allowed it to escape..... How is it that the "melted lead" made it to the target instead of being ejected from the bullet jacket somewhere between the muzzle and the target???

Since every bullet is slowing down after it leaves the muzzle.....simple physics tell us that: 1.the rotational forces on the bullet are greater closer to the muzzle.......and 2. the heat of the bullet is greatest closest to the muzzle.......then WHY isn't the molten lead ejected from the jacket BEFORE the bullet reaches the target????



Wrong again........according to you, sierra said the bullet "vaporized".......what, exactly, do they mean by "vaporized"? I have been to and toured the Sierra plant.......I have personally met a few of their technicians and visited with most of them on the phone......they are not scientists.......they don't have a lab........I was in the shooting tunnel area, there was no high speed photography equipment there........there were no instruments capable of measuring the temp of a bullet in flight......

Can't say for certain about the folks at Hornady.....but I suspect they have about the same equipment and credentials......


Here are a couple more questions for you.........

Lot's of full metal jacket bullets have lead cores that are completely exposed at the base of the bullet......there is NO jacket covering the core at the base (I have .224 and .308 bullets made this way and can supply photos if necessary)........if the core melted in flight.....how could it possibly stay in the jacket on the way to the target???

Why is it that bullets recovered from water or snow banks often have the lead tip intact when recovered???

My apologies if my approach is "out of the strike zone"......at least I'm not out in left field! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Gonhuntin,

"Hornady MAY have said it......doesn't mean it's true.......saying something is true and offering PROOF are not the same! I know what I have seen and, what I have seen with my own two eyes does NOT support what Hornady says.........I'll trust my eyes!"

When someone quotes Hornady and lists the 800 number it's out of line to infer that they are lying about what Hornady said. This was the reason and still is the reason that I am reluctant to discuss anything with you. Now go and call Hornady or Sierra about this topic but other wise remain silent.

"Knowing the melting point or material of construction of the plastic tip is not necessary to prove that his statement is false! He states that the plastic tips have a higher melting point than lead........I did a simple, reproducible experiment that PROVES that his statement is false......try it for yourself!"

Your expeiment was flawed. Remember that the plastic has to get thru the bore and to the target without melting. It does not have to resist a propane flame!

If you think about it the jacket gets hot from friction with the bore and transmits that heat to the highly conductive lead core. Also the flame from the burning powder does the same.

On the other hand the plastic meplat is far from the flame or the bore and also of a lower conductivity. Thus it does not melt. It seems that you did not think of that did you?

"How would you suggest that we test the tips to see if what Glore says is true?? I have recovered plastic tips intact......they weren't melted.......since they melted long before the lead tips in my test.......what conclusion would you draw???? Are you suggesting that there a "special" type of heat that melts lead but doesn't melt plastic??? "

All that needs to be done is to shoot them and we have done that and they pass. That's the application.

"Well Duh??? I have a couple of boxes of the bullets in question in my reloading supplies.......that is how I was able to do the test! I noticed, right away, that the blitz bullets don't have a plastic tip........remember, I said the L*E*A*D tip on the blitz didn't even deform in the propane flame until 7 seconds.........I removed the bullet from the flame the instant I saw any change.......guess what.......the lead tip was still intact and nearly identical to every other bullet in the box.......the plastic tip, on the other hand, was G*O*N*E...... burned off.......history......in 5 seconds........what do you make of that????"

The cores in the Blitz bullets melted because the too thin jacket slit open and therefore exposed the lead to 3600 fps.

Maybe if the bullet had the same platic core that the meplats are made from it would have melted too. But thats not the application.

"Nope.....you saw what you described as a "comet trail"........NOT melted lead! Have you ever worked with melted lead?"

How do you know that? I was there. Sierra says it's vaporized lead, Hornady says it's melted lead. Yet you have the audacity to question us when you have never even observed the phenonomen and most likely never even heard of it before.

"How was the "melted lead" that caused your "comet trail" escaping from the bullet jacket???"

The too thin jackets split open.

" *IF* the lead was molten and *IF* there was a fracture in the bullet jacket that allowed it to escape..... How is it that the "melted lead" made it to the target instead of being ejected from the bullet jacket somewhere between the muzzle and the target??? "

Maybe it was as the loads were not accurate at all.

"Since every bullet is slowing down after it leaves the muzzle.....simple physics tell us that: 1.the rotational forces on the bullet are greater closer to the muzzle.......and 2. the heat of the bullet is greatest closest to the muzzle.......then WHY isn't the molten lead ejected from the jacket BEFORE the bullet reaches the target????"

Maybe it is. In any case the rpm does not change much at all.

" Wrong again........according to you, sierra said the bullet "vaporized".......what, exactly, do they mean by "vaporized"? I have been to and toured the Sierra plant.......I have personally met a few of their technicians and visited with most of them on the phone......they are not scientists.......they don't have a lab........I was in the shooting tunnel area, there was no high speed photography equipment there........there were no instruments capable of measuring the temp of a bullet in flight......

Can't say for certain about the folks at Hornady.....but I suspect they have about the same equipment and credentials......"

To me vaporized means that the melted lead became a vapor.

"Lot's of full metal jacket bullets have lead cores that are completely exposed at the base of the bullet......there is NO jacket covering the core at the base (I have .224 and .308 bullets made this way and can supply photos if necessary)........if the core melted in flight.....how could it possibly stay in the jacket on the way to the target???"

Did those bullets have too thin jackets that split open?

"Why is it that bullets recovered from water or snow banks often have the lead tip intact when recovered???"

Gore said soft lead and not hard lead. The Blitz has 1.5% antimony and many other of thier bullets have 3%. Maybe pistol bullets have even less antimony.