Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Do Exposed Lead Tips of Bullets Melt During Flight?

Sitka deer----I used the phrase "being cooled" in reference to the bullet interacting with the barrel and the air. These both create heat and the heat is shared at some rate between the 2 objects experiencing the friction----not one losing all and one absorbing all the heat generated. If the 2 objects are placed in static contact with each other there will be a one way transfer of heat--if they have different temperatures. When you add friction to the equation things are different.
The other phrase -- "the net affect is the cooling of the bullet in flight" -- is saying that the heat the bullet gained while in contact with the barrel is being lost during flight faster than heat is being generated by the friction between the bullet and air. Net is the operative word there.
Back to common sense-----Are you saying that I cannot rub a cold pipe with my hand and have both objects gain heat and rise in temperature? Oh crap there is that issue of time to contend with and oh yeah now maybe we should consider the amount of pressure applied-----both which are a function of the amount of heat generated. The immediate contact with the cold pipe will give me the "sensation" of heat loss in my hand----but I can rub a cold pipe and both the pipe and my hand will increase in temperature-----in time with force being applied.
Maybe "lead melting in flight" is like flying saucers. I don't believe they are out there, but I don't have proof either way. Which leaves us with---yes it is possible but common sense........................

Sitka----I will be passing thru Anchorage in Sept on the way to Goodnews Lake. Maybe we could do some testing at that time. Just kidding, I probably won't have time and I am sure you have more pressing things to do.

roadkill
A cold pipe rubbed vigorously by a warm hand will not share the heat generated... there will be a heat transfer from the warm hand to the cold pipe. Net loss, gross loss, call it anything, the hand will be colder when finished rubbing the frosty pipe...

There are a few guys that post here that would like me to be elsewhere in Sept... chasing deer on Kodiak actually... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Was curious about Goodnews Lake's name derivation and so looked it up in the dictionary of AK place names... a truly good book! It turned up something of interest...

"In 1868 USCGS derived 'Goodnews Bay' from translation of the Russian name 'Port Dobrykh Vestey' meaning Port Goodnews...................... Capt. Lutke in 1836 IRN called it in French 'Bonnes Nouvelles baie' or 'goodnews bay' and said that it might better be called the'Bay of False Reports.' It was visited and probably named by the land expedition of Vstiugof and Korsakof of 1818-19."

There is no explaination for the false reports idea... but it is a potentially humorous thing... hope you are being given true reports... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Killbuck caribou hunting?
art

Looking back at your post I realize we are a lot closer to agreement than I initially took your argument... you are outside the bullet example for much of your statement and I was using narrow statements relative to that.

The time thing is, as you point out, critical to much of the argument... In times relavent to bullet travel the bullet will not be there long enough to gain heat from the air... but it is possible to share heat if enough time and pressure are available...
art

Nearin' on a hundred years ago, Charls Newton did an expariment. He somehow got the ideal that the cores of his bullets melted because of the burning powder. To test this theory, he took some bullets and a hole on either side of the jacket. He shot the bullets into paper, and found a lead streak on either side of the hole. He wanted to fix the problem, so he wrapped the cores in paper, and preformed the same test again. He reported no problems.

I read on the Lost River Ballistic website that bullet tips melt at approx. 3300 FPS. (This is the company that makes bullets meant for super high velocity impacts, ultra long range shooting and they were designed by doctors)

Quite frankly, I don't care if the front half of the bullet melts away, so long as it doesnt affect accuracy or bullet proformance on game.

(I don't know where I pick up all these useless facts, but I do.)

I believe that most eveyone here had some good points/arguments.
If the pipe and hand are at ambient temperature to start (like a bullet, barrel and air) what is your take on the heat generated by friction--will one or both objects gain heat?
Now thanks to 264 I am wondering if a molten lead bullet is a lot more explosive to crow flesh than near molten.
ps: The trip to Goodnew Lake will be with my son who is in the Army stationed in Anchorage. We will camp, float, hunt and fish our way out to the ocean and have a great time no matter what happens.

Sitka----Forgive my not taking the time to thank you for the info on Goodnews and to wish you well on Kodiak. If you get a blacktail antler you would like made into a knife---let me know.

roadkill
When all start at ambient friction works equally on all, but heat is shed faster by some media than others. As soon as the temperature differential develops the heat starts flowing in the cooler direction. A bullet leaving the bore has been shedding heat to the bore since very early in its travel... but it picked up heat in the bore.

Once it is in air the bullet is shedding heat as fast as the air will receive it. Not all lost energy is lost as heat though. The motion imparted on the air by the bullet takes energy...

PM heading your way in a few...
art

Now I don't want you fellas to start thinking this thread is winding down 'cause I gotta whole new [color:"red"] spin [/color] for you to consider. I know it was a bad pun, but 'tis the only pun I have at the moment. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

IF I were to accept the idea that cores melt in flight there's a couple of things I have to work out first. First one is fairly simple, how come hard cast lead bullets can be fired near abouts 3000 foot per? I mean, where does the cast draw the line? One molecule say to the other, "okay, okay, okay, you be the core, I'll be the jacket!"? Then there's this thing with jacketed bullets 'cause I know that's what you're talkin' about. Right, so the deal is, when I shoot my Partitions out of my .300 Rum at 3800 foot per, does the lead all melt out the a$$ end of it? And when it goes all the way thru that 6X6 elk after it sheds the nose section, well 'splain that'n to me if you don't mind. 'Nother thing, and this is the tough one. When the core melts(that means liquify to me dudes), then you got this bullet rippin' down range with a solid jacket, a solid nose(lead or plastic), or maybe a nose that's gettin' a little weak in the knees, and the guts of the bullet is lookin' like a Maytag on 220 VAC. Now did you ever ask yourself(do if you haven't), "I wonder if this would affect the gyroscopic stability of the projectile?" "This" being the standin word for "liquid core".

I'm just sorry as hell boys, but my Cray is in the shop for a redeux, and anyway my program for computational fluid dynamics still has a few bugs, and well...I ain't gonna show you my work. Do it yourself. Or read some of Harold Vaughn's papers on the subject of stabilizing liquid filled projectiles.

Keep at it, this is more fun than half time at the Super Bowl! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ain't gonna happen, nobody bought Sav99's fairy tale! It is still up for sale though.........

MtnHtr

[color:"red"] [/color] I actually registered to this forum because of this topic. Thanks! [color:"blue"] [/color]

Here is the deal, IMHO. I have been commercially building/casting bullets for a few years now, and the only deformation that lead undergoes (after leaving the barrel and before impacting a target) in my research to date is SOME dead soft BHN 5-6 lead COULD theoretically deform in flight at those velocities due to the pressures exerted on the projectile nose. NOT melting, aerodynamic pressures causing the soft lead to SLIGHTLY move from frontal pressures on a FLAT NOSED or POSSIBLY HP pure (as much as it can be) lead bullet.

Now, one must first get that dead soft lead TO that velocity, and that is another matter entirely, as that much pressure can actually blow the center out of an all lead projectile of very soft construction (no jacket, and BHN 5-6) well before the MV we are discussing is reached in a bore, especially if there is nothing to ease pressure on the base (gas check, wad or other filler, wax disc, etc.).
But nobody will be able to convince me without a photo (and I know a pic can be done, I have one of a .270 Winchester at better than 3100 fps, and the nose is perfect) of the event that a nose melts from heat of friction with the air. And that photo would be worth it's weight in gold. Oh, and there are halos on ALL of my 45 ACP hits on paper..With a plated bullet or lead, and even on jacketed ones. It is called "powder residue". It also happens on my 50 cal, the 44, the 22 Mag, 270, etc. etc. after even a few shots. Try a powder change to a cleaner propellant ( I am happy with my choices and am not worried about it). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> [color:"blue"] [/color]

bulletmaker
Welcome to the fire! There were some photos taken that seemed to show melted tips and that has led to the confusion about the issue... or so I have read.

The funny thing is the folks doing the most arguing for the melting tips have done nothing to explain where the magic energy comes from to melt them...

I am sorry to see them quit because I did not get to play the ace I have been holding... Friction is a function of surface area... the energy required to melt the tips must be converted from kinetic energy and result in a drop in velocity.

The tip is sooooo tiny and the friction MUST be developed there (too little time to be conducted there and heat goes toward the cooler center or air) So... the surface area of the tip converts kinetic energy to heat at some rate faster than the jacket, but not much (arguably, not at all)... the result is the surface area of the jacket is where the vast majority of the conversion takes place... the tip may convert more per unit of area, but the area is too small to make a significant dent in the conversion. The bullet arrives at 100 yards with too much energy to both maintain speed and melt lead, let alone do it with almost no surface area.
art

I have not read the other 90 something posts so this may have been mentioned before. Craig Boddington mentioned in a sidebar on plastic tip bullets that one of their advantages was the tip not melting in route to the target as do lead bullets. I wrote Guns&Ammo requesting proof of that statement. Based on high speed photos of bullets in flight, the tip doesn't melt. I offer a simple experiment; hold a ballistic tip bullet by the boattail and place a burning candle under the tip, it melts almost instantly. Try that with a lead tipped bullet and you will drop the bullet from heat being transferred before the lead melts. G&A never answered.Rick.

This was my orginal observation on the topic. I stand by it and it's been confirmed by both the Sierra and Hornady bullet companies. It seems that the reason my cores melted or produced melted lead was that the jackets failed or ruptured as both Sierra and Hornady agreed. This is how some vaporized lead made a comet tail around each bullet hole.

Hornady did say that soft lead tips melt over 2600 fps and I relayed this exact statement.

Be well.

To paraphrase a old saying, "You can lead a Savage99 to knowlege, but you can't make him think"

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, its obvious that some of you just don't believe in magic. Shoot on!

if friction cant melt lead how come the space shuttle turned into a fire ball when it lost its heat shields????

Hubert,

[quote] if friction cant melt lead how come the space shuttle turned into a fire ball when it lost its heat shields???? /quote]

Intensity and duration.

Not to mention starting out with enough energy in the form of motion and ending up free-falling; Topped off with a dose of stuff that burns far easier than lead melts...