Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Large Major TV show on Remington trigger coverup

Art ...

I'm not going to argue with you on what you've said, but still have to ask the question that Belk asked - which is (paraphrased) "What's the purpose of the connector?" - as opposed to having the trigger piece be a solid unit?

I would also like you, if you would, to expand on your statement above. The way I see it, if there is more room between the "front" of the connector and the housing for the over-travel screw than there is sear engagement, then I can't see how your statement is true. If the connector becomes disengaged from the trigger, it is that amount of room that allows for the connector to get out from under the sear.

Another strange aspect of the design, to me, is that the over-travel screw engages the trigger proper, not the connector - as the connector has a hole in it that allows it to move (should it become disengaged) further than the over-travel screw allows the trigger itself to move. So I would ask this:

"Why the hole in the connector as opposed to having the over-travel screw contact the connector instead of going thru it and contacting the actual trigger piece?"

again, let me make clear that I have no problems with the design from the standpoint that all the different trigger prior to the X-Mark Pro that I've used have functioned perfectly, including the bolt-lock safety style triggers ... but that doesn't mean I can't see how it COULD malfunction more easily with the use of a floating connector.

BULLSHIT!!!

Few years back I was working with installing a Gentry 3-Pos saftey on a couple of Remingtons. The instructions specifically state that the firing pin HAS to retract the firing pin .020" when the saftey is applied. While dicking around with the job I had the cocking piece retracting back just far enough that it would barely lift the sear arm off of the floating connector. When the trigger was pulled (with the safety on) the connector would rotate foward BUT NOT RETURN TO IT's PROPER POSITION, it would stay foward. Releasing the saftey would allow the firing pin to fall!

So YES, there is room for the floating connector to get stuck out of position!!!

Ohh, you are quite correct! I bet there's quite a bunch out here who indeed have a few issues with his "forced silence".... No matter what the truth is about the remington trigger, Belks previous behaviour taints whatever he's saying and in the shooting community his word is not worth as much as it used to be (he is an amazing craftsman but then there's this other thing....).

THIS is the type of conversation that should be happening. It is about the actual design and the "Nuts and Bolts" of how these triggers work.

I've read anything and everything Art had to say about smoothing these triggers for years & believe he understands them on a level few do.

WGM, you surely do bring up some legitimate questions, too. This is very helpful to those of us who have never had a problem and will likely help more folks understand these triggers on a deeper level. That's all good.

"The way I see it, if there is more room between the "front" of the connector and the housing for the over-travel screw than there is sear engagement, then I can't see how your statement is true. If the connector becomes disengaged from the trigger, it is that amount of room that allows for the connector to get out from under the sear.

Another strange aspect of the design, to me, is that the over-travel screw engages the trigger proper, not the connector - as the connector has a hole in it that allows it to move (should it become disengaged) further than the over-travel screw allows the trigger itself to move. So I would ask this:

"Why the hole in the connector as opposed to having the over-travel screw contact the connector instead of going thru it and contacting the actual trigger piece?"
-------------------------------------------------

I'm awed by Belk's gunsmithing talents but he's totally missed the value and purpose of that floating trigger connector; that doesn't mean it isn't valuable. I regret that Belk has joined a suit that can only hurt both Remington and the public image of our sport due to the owner's malfeasance (IMHO)!

I'm neither a smith nor a mechanical engineer but I do understand what that ingenious design does and why it's helpful to make a durable and excellant HUNTING (not target) trigger inexpensively enough for a mass production rifle. Such cost is not trivial, as mentioned above the price of a "better" aftermarket trigger costs a large percentage of the 700's total price!


An explaination of why/how the loose connector works is too lengthy and difficult for a non-technical writer like me to describe in print but the idea was clearly to produce a trigger with crisp let-off and with the least creep and over-travel as possible without making a too-small and fragile nose at the sear/trigger engagement point. I can't describe it but I can clearly see it in the drawings. It's there, but so are the potential hazards of mis-adjustment and dry oil gumming the connector to the point of failure.

I believe those who've had accidental discharges either adjusted their trigger far too lightly AND/OR (probably more common) failed to keep the trigger unit free of gummy oil, with that interferring with the connector so it can't move freely when the trigger is releaed and reset itself. If it can't move to reset, anytime the safety is on and the trigger gets pulled the striker will then fall when the safety is released.

Rem's safety is a proper sear blocking safety. Pulling the trigger with any such safety WILL free the sear from the point of contact, in the Reminton that contact is the connector's nose. But then, IF the otherwise excellant Rem floating connector is gummed so it cannot freely move to reset, the striker will fall when the safety is released. That can't happen with a cheaper/simple trigger blocking safety but only so long as the critical and fragile contact point is undamaged; a sear blocking safety is considered the better design. Without Remington's free floating connector, the striker spring places a LOT of pressure on a conventional fragile and tiny trigger-to-sear engagement point.

ONLY things the owner needs to to do to keep his 700 safe is not over adjust the trigger AND keep the fire control/trigger unit clean. An annual spray of carb cleaner/gun scrubber will clean it nicely, and lightly oiled with a non-gumming gun oil so the connector can move feely, as it was designed to do.

Bottom line, it's foolish to trust any "safety" on any firearm, mechanical things fail; that's why repairmen have jobs. Opening the action when traveling or around other people and muzzle control works everytime it's tried. ??

Here's a photo of the offending trigger.


To the left is the block which contains the sear engagement and trigger tension screws (it's the block with the hole in the top). On the right is the top of the floating connector. The gap in the middle is the space where the connector travels. IT IS APROX 3/32" WIDE!!! If you look carefully you'll see the trigger spring and the adjusting screw in the space. This is a factory adjusted trigger, it has aprox .030" sear engagement. That means the connector will move .030" and then the sear arm will fall... there's still .060" clearance to the left of the connector. I can take a small screwdriver and push the connector off the trigger that additional clearance.

Anyone who states there isn't enough room for the connector to get out of place is clueless...

AND SURE AS HELL SHOULDN'T BE WORKING ON TRIGGERS!!!!

this is one of those non issues, that is designed to damage Firearms manufactures, and enrich liberal lawyers.

Smoke and mirrors.............

I'm no engineer, and I hate when the media does this type of thing, but I don't see why they don't just fix it.

Look at Ruger's recalls, where they bring the item back and fix it free of charge, unlimited by times/dates/windows.

Purpose of the connector, from the patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=37VLAAAAEBAJ&dq=2514981





Bruce

Yep...

And for some reason Winchester along with a bunch of other triggers stay crisp through-out the life of the trigger.

That's unless some idiot tries to "smooth up" the trigger pull by stoning the engagement surface improperly and rounds off the sharp edge.

Good and informative post, boomtube, but:



Or grit, or mud, who knows... To me that's just saying the old 700 trigger/safety design isn't reliable in field conditions.

Not to mention Sako, Tikka, Blaser, Sauer, Mauser and dozens of other makers who produce excellent and reliable triggers...

Ruger didn't "fix" their single actions they [bleep] them up. Colt's SAA and AFAIK all the Uberti reproductions still work like a SA revolver should, indexing correctly. Ruger SA revolvers no longer index right and haven't since 1973, except perhaps the new Vaquero or new Bearcat..

Sam: I beg to differ.

Regardless of why any gun fires (without touching the trigger), it creates bad press and lawsuits that affect all of us (poor image, higher prices from judgments).

That there have been documented unintended firings of Remington 700's as shown on the TV show that is indicative of something being wrong. These inadvertent firings could result from:
- Improper adjustment of the trigger
- A poor or less that fool-proof design
- A bad design.

Regardless, it puts Remington and all shooters in a poor light. These triggers need to be replaced for everyone's good. There are just too many incidents from reputable sources (US military and law enforcement agencies) for something not to be amiss.

Regardless, they offer to fix a perceived safety defect without restrictions.

I like Remington. I want to see them stay in business. Having a product in your line that gets pilloried every few years when news is slow, can't be good for business.

Remington offed new triggers, I had one installed.
I guess you could say Ruger fixed a nonexistent problem in an attempt to dodge lawsuits. Bill Ruger said we had no need for large capacity magazines too.
Smith & Wesson bent over infuriating many too, so this sort of action is not new to the firearms manufacturing world, or the rest of it for that matter.
As long as frivolous lawsuits are allowed in this country it isn't going to stop either.
Hot coffee anyone?

any TV show that appears on CNBC is neither large nor major, BTW

just sayin'

David Petzal on Rem 700:

And there we come to the crux of the matter. If the original 700 trigger has a fault, it is that it can be fooled with by anyone who has a small screwdriver. The adjustments are delicate, and if you don�t know how (or know enough) to keep sufficient engagement between the sear and the trigger connector, the rifle can slam fire, or fire when it�s dropped, or fire when the safety is flipped off. The same thing happens when you set the trigger pull lower than 3 pounds; it is not designed to function below that level, and there are some fools who love to take it down to 2 or 2 �.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs...fferent-look-remington-model-700-trigger

"If the original 700 trigger has a fault, it is that it can be fooled with by anyone who has a small screwdriver."

That is the smartest thing that I've read in years! I've seen sooo many cases where some idiot who calls himself a gunsmith, takes a file and a pair of plyers to a gun and screws it up big time. When some joker touts a used gun as having had a "trigger job" I run from the scene.

Most of you know what I think of Remingtons but the "hit piece" whether true or not was just an attempt to bring the entire industry into the negative limelight again. Also, the fact that Belk was the "expert" certainly did not help in the credibility department at least with me. Clearly there have been MILLIONS of 700 sold so these issues are statistically insignificant-to most of us- still, I'd hate to be the folks depicted in the piece. But the fact there is a huge after-market industry for Remington triggers,bolt handle screws and extractors is indicative of a problem. Contrast that with say Winchesters and the difference is huge.jorge