Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Christ at the Campfire Topics I have found to be controversial.

There's no need to, is there? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



I concur whole-heartedly!



Yes! They certainly are. I'm really looking forward to meeting the brothers up there again.

So, do you visit them often, or every once in a while, or what? Just curious. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Shootist, my work involves putting on tests and waiting for them to finish before I do anything else. Usually I do some research during the downtime, but sometimes when I am going crosseyed from reading technical stuff it's nice to read some opinionated stuff here. Your point is taken though, and it is a good one.

As far as the greek/hebrew, I agree. A lot of people say "If you look at the greek/hebrew it really means..." I have a bit of a problem with that. If that's the case then all Christian schools should teach greek and hebrew and the Bibles shouldn't be in any other language. Sometimes it seems as though people will say that so that they can interpret the scripture in a manner that follows their pre-existing thinking.

SS

Sam,

Yup. (About the foreign languages.) And you are right about trying to prove their own point. I always figured when a guy prefaced a remark about the Bible with "what that really means is . . ." he was fixing to tell me a whopper. (of a lie) I always figured God meant what he said, and said what he meant. But I'm pretty simple. (Romans 16:19) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

SamSteele,

Yes, you have a good point. When the Bible says something, that's what it means. I usually don't like to get into the greek too much. But occasionally (and only rarely, I might add), it helps to look up a word and it's defenition just to clarify things a little. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm not saying it's different in the original language. I'm just saying that sometimes it helps me to understand a seemingly difficult passage, because it sheds more light on the passage.

Inhissteps;

Hey neighbor, I have never met with the Shippensburg folks. Please give me some contact info for the Shippensburg folks and I will go to the camp meeting! I could use some fellowship. I will be in Northern VA with mom for easter though...

inhissteps,



Your exegisis sure seems sound to me. Why would the Holy Spirit include all the Specific Instruction you quoted and them make It meanlyless? Using that logic is exactly like an evolutionist's philosophical escape mechanism to get out of accepting God's Word.

It seems you want someone who will put the head covering on in the middle of the night to pray is the same as me lifting my hands in the middle of the night to pray. It goes back to, do you want to please the Lord? I Do.

Amen! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I want to please Him too. He is so good to us, and He's done so much for us, the least we can give Him in return is our very lives; as a living sacrifice.

The Bible tells us to teach sound doctrine, and hold to sound doctrine. It tells us to speak truth, and to speak it in love. It also tells us to love in truth.

It might be PC to ignore serious error, and get along, but it is not Biblical.

It is true that there is a limit to which we should go in arguing such things as election, or when and how often we take the Lord's Supper, or whether or not one can lose his justification/salvation.

However, when it comes to things that involve the basics of Christianity, we must not compromise.
Accordingly, it might be unpleasant to have to tell a Mormon or Roman Catholic that he is not a Christian, but it is necessary if we love him and want him to go to Heaven instead of Hell. We must warn them.
Neither of those religions believes that one is saved by grace through faith in Christ and nothing more or less. They will tell you they believe in Jesus, but either it is a different Jesus, as in Mormonism, or they believe that in addition to Jesus one must have good works to be saved, as both RC and Mormonism.

I wish we could get along, but God has plainly said that the way to Him is through Jesus, and works denigrate His sacrifice.

Love demands we tell the erring one who are lost the truth. Don't tell me that you love God, and your neighbor and then let him go to Hell without the truth whether you are too timid or too uninformed to know the truth of the Gospel.

Jerry

Intolerance is not Christian.

Does that mean you're not a Christian, jmartin03?

I guess Jesus Christ is not Christian either then. He didn't tolerate the religious crowd of his day. He didn't tolerate the money changers in the temple. He didn't tolerate the Scribes and the Pharisees.

God the Father isn't much of a Christian by your definition then either. He doesn't tolerate sin. He refuses to tolerate the rebellion of the devil. He does not tolerate the people who hate him. He would not tolerate Israel and Judah when the went a whoring after strange gods. What a crass and insensitive God you must have if this tolerance is the measuring stick of spirituality.

The Bible plainly says that we are to "Warn them that are unruly." (1 Thes 5:14) By your definition, we ought to change that verse to say, Tolerate them that are unruly.

jmartin03 speaks the truth in love as well as anyone on these boards. He will not, nor will I, compromise truth in the name of love. Neither will the Lord.

Where in the Bible did you find that? You did not because it is not there.

In many places it tells us to reject error, and to hold sound doctrine.
The thought that a Christian is to be tolerant of sin, error and such is a liberal invention to justify his own actions and claim that everyone is to be tolerant, and to abstain from making judgments as to his obvious sin.

2 John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 �For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 �If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
I would have to say that the Apostle John was not very tolerant.

Go to a church that teaches and preaches the Bible and ask about church discipline. They will tell you about tolerance of serious error such as we are discussing.

Jerry

mrmarklin,



If you don't mind, would you show us from the Word where this gem is. According to my Bible we are to "Judge those in the church. God will judge thow on the outside. Come out from them and be seperate."

"Anyone who goes too far and does not abibe in the teaching of Christ does not have the Father or the Son. Do not recieve them into your house."

Anyone is welcome in my home. That is until they tell me they are a Christian and don't suport God's Word with their conversation and life.

Luke 6:37

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

I don't see the spirit of this in some of you. Some of you appear like the Jews in ancient days, condemning the Lord because he consorted with publicans and sinners...trying to teach them and help them.
Stigmatizing people who don't conform to certain beliefs as non-Christian is name-calling and petty.

To me, if a person believes in the Lord, and is trying to learn more about Him, and trying to behave in a manner pleasing to Him.......that person's a Christian. I may not believe the same details of the gospels in the same way, but I'm far from condemning him. Judge not..........

mrmarklin,



Let's take a look at more than One Verse to build a doctrine. Jesus tells us if our brother sins go to him. How did we dedtermine he sinned if we did not judge him. Jesus tell us to judge with righteous judgement. Why? Because as believers judging is not optional, it is required. Why else would the Word of God tell us to come out from among them? We are warned to watch out for wolves in sheep's clothing. Would that not require a judgement? We are warned not to follow false teachers. Does that not require judgement. If all there was is "judge not" 2 John 9-11 would be contridicting Jesus.

Many years ago I was having a conversation with a fellow and realized he was a different kind of Christian. I finally guessed and said, "My God's name is not Michael." He became indignant and said, "Well mine is." That pretty much ended the conversation.

By the way, if you were honestly to re-read the last couple of post as an outside observer, you would realize you judged me. And that is a good start to being a mature Christian. You don't want to be sucked in by un-Truth; so continue your study of God'w Word.

The erroneous thinking that believes that making judgments is the judging to which Jesus referred results in permissiveness and tolerance of sin.

Let me give a couple of passages that command us to make judgments as to the conduct of others.

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Jerry

Ringman, one verse does not a doctrine make. But unlike many of the quotations above it's not out of context. I actually think it's an uttering of Christ Himself. I could quote other scriptures, but why bother? How many would I need to convince you? Your mind's made up.

Someone said I was being unscriptural about intolerance. I wasn't, and I proved it.

mrmarklin,



To whom?

Prove it with the Bible. Do you realize that the words spoken by Jesus, as recorded in the Bible have no more authority than the words of Paul or the other writers?

Let us look at Jesus' words regarding judging others.
Matthew 7:1 �Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

First, I expect to be judged by the same standards that I make judgments. Those standards are clearly stated in the Bible, and they pertain to me and you.

Second, the main point is that the judging was hypocritical.

Thirdly, Jesus did not say not to make judgments. Instead He said be holy yourself before you seek to make judgments regarding other's holiness.

That is clear, and the passages I posted are in harmony with that.
Jesus was very intolerant of sinners who did not repent. He never accepted a sinner continuing in his sin. What He did was to confront sin, and cause the sinner to make a decision to repent or not. If not, then he could not follow Jesus.

In the subject of this thread, the issue is false religion vs truth. Nowhere did any of the Biblical writers, in the new or old testaments, tolerate and overlook sin. What do you think Paul meant about judgments in the verses I posted?

What do you think he means here?

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Or here.
Galatians 6:1 �Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Would you be tolerant and ignore that fault?

Each of us can commit sin that requires us to be corrected. Those in false religions must be told the truth.

Now do you believe that Roman Catholicism and Mormonism are Christian? If so why?

Jerry

Hey guys, just happened to peek in on this one. I have had Ringman on ignore for well over a year now, and based on your responses to him I can see that still remains a wise decision.

When it comes to controversial topics, if we do not discuss them in humility we are wrong. If we choose to be dogmatic we are wrong--dogmaticism comes from the pit of Hell.

After all, if a person has accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and are doing their best to bury the flesh daily and live in obedience to Him, what does it matter if they believe God created via the Creationism model, the Evolution model, or the Intelligent Design Model?

I recently heard a well known biblical shcolar--Prof Radmacher (sp?) speak at our church. I didn't mind so much that he holds to the minority interpretation of John 15:2, after all, he may be right. But way he presented it, that of his view is the only possible view that can be correct and anyone who disagrees is lacking--means I cannot trust him. For if he--a NKJV translator--cannot present his view with humilty and with full understanding of the validity of other's views, how do I know if his scholarship is correct or it's just his ego is out of control?

Yes, there are a handful of things in Christ we cannot bend on: The diety of Christ, the Virgin Birth, the Ressurection, Atonement, Santification, etc. However, many of the "controversial issues" aren't so clearly laid out (that's whay they are controversial), and if God himself did not think it important enough to spell out, then where do we get off drawing lines in the sand over it?

No one has a monopoly on truth, but the line must be drawn when some claim there is no truth. Christians are often labled as intolerant. To their way of thinking I suppose it is so. But in the Bible it is very important to know that no scripture is of any private interpretation. You say that it is important to understand the validity of other's claims. I don't believe this is a biblical idea. While all have a right to their belief, and we must have humility, as you say, with an understanding that we are not "God's gift" to Bible scholars, everyone does not have validity in their ideas about the Bible.

We are told to study to show ourselves approved. We must stand ready to defend the truth. Sometimes we may get over zealous in this, and that is unfortunate, but the Bible must interpret itself. It isn't open to anyone saying anything they want about it.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. (Rom 1:22)

They called evil good and good evil.

But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them. (2 Ti 3: 14)

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. And they shall turn away from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Ti 4:2-4)

Certainly we must have some humility with this, but that does not mean tolerance.