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Hi IndyCA35,

[�Instead of congratulating the young man on his choice of a religion, you took the opportunity to denounce his religion. Perhaps "hate" is too strong a word for what seems to be your absence of civility. Let alone simple politeness.

"Bigot" is spelled b-i-g-o-t and will do nicely.

As far as understanding the basics of Christianity, I think they include behaving toward others in what would seem to be a Christian manner.

Is it a requirement for being a Baptist to denounce the beliefs of good Christians who happen to be Catholic or Mormon?

If someone invites you to a Jewish wedding do you make a scene about the theology?

Now, if I have you wrong, then I am the one who should apologize, and I do so.�]

First, being a Baptist has nothing to do with the subject under discussion. The important thing is not what any Baptist says or does, but what does the Bible that God has give us to guide our lives say? It is God who has decreed the way of salvation, and when man contradicts that way, then man is wrong, and headed for Hell.

No matter what you might believe, neither Mormonism nor Roman Catholicism (RC) is Christian.
How can I be sure of that? I am sure because I have compared the doctrines and beliefs that they themselves state, and compared those to what the Bible says.
In my last post I did a comparison of RC (If this using RC offends anyone, then I apologize and will cease, but it does help my typing.) and the Bible. It is obvious that there is a significant difference. That difference is the difference in being Christian or non-Christian.

No Christian �happens to be Catholic or Mormon� because they are in contradiction with the fundamentals of the Christian faith.
I have never been to a Jewish wedding, but I do not hesitate to tell Jews that the only way to God is through His Son, Jesus Christ, and if they reject that they are damned.

There is always an attempt to make me or Baptist the issue. But the issue is not me, or my preference as to a doctrinal position of a local church.
The issue is what has God said, and whether or not Mormonism or RC conforms to His Word.

I suggest that you examine the RC and Mormon doctrines and compare them with the Bible, and then tell me that I am a bigot for stating the truth that God has provided us to obtain eternal life.
Tell me that it is better not to offend someone, and let him go to Hell without ever hearing the truth, than to give him the truth and let him make his decision as to his eternal future. At least he has heard the truth.
Unfortunately most prefer to be popular and not offend to being true to the faith that saves. Which do you prefer?

PS. A Christian manner is to follow Christ and His commands an warn men of the danger of rejecting His truth. It is not accepting anything and everyone's religion and pretending that their religions will get them to God, when it will not.

PS @.
I might as well add that the Bible tells parents to raise a child in the way he ought to go. It does not say that parents are to let a child choose a false religion. The parent is obviously not informed as to the Bible and its teachings. If so he would tell the child what church he would attend, and not permit a child to fall into such error.

Jerry

jmartin03,

Now, let me point out to you the things I didn't like in your post. I will list them from the first to the last.


























































Good job of defending the Truth in the love of Jesus.

Dude.....

Jerry,

Even Luther said that most RC's were Christians.. Just not the Pope.

Why don't you start a new thread and let this thread celebrate the baptism of a kid................

James 2

17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Some people here are not getting it. Of course we need grace to enter into our Eternal salvation. None of us will ever be perfect. But it seems clear that works can demonstrate our faith. Note verse 17. Faith without works is dead. In other words IT'S NOT FAITH.

Bottom line...you've got to dance the dance.

Why don't some of you guys try reading all the Bible?

wuzzagrunt

Congratulations on your son's decision. You're raising him to do what's right, and that's OK by me. .

mrmarklin,

There is no question that James says that faith without works is dead. The point is that works are results of salvation, and not the cause as the RC claims. There is a world of difference in the two.

On the other hand, the thief on the cross did not have works, but was justified.
Here is a passage that might throw a wrench in the must have good works to be saved thinking.

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Doesn't appear that the man in question had good works or they would not be burned. He suffered loss of rewards, but not salvation, and it was as if he had to run from a burning house naked.

If works are necessary for salvation then Paul's letters are in error. Since God does not contradict Himself, and since Paul states that salvation is by grace and NOT of works, then James' statements must fit within that truth. There is no conflict. It is simply that one who has saving faith will manifest that faith. If he does not then James says that his faith is not saving faith. That is in harmony with the teachings of the Bible.
Don't confuse the place of works and faith. Faith results in works, and works must follow faith, but not vice versa.

To refer to Jesus' statement, the fruit that the tree bears is indicative of the nature of that tree. RC has this reversed when it states that works add to and are necessary for justification.


Jerry

Ringman,

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I liked your encouragement to jmartin03. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I want to encourage you, too, jmartin. Thank you for your posts. I think they're excellent! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think I pointed out that salvation is clearly by grace. Because we cannot manifest enough works because of our imperfections. You're right, the scriptures are not in conflict.

I think you misinterpret Corinthians. Clearly if you have left good works, but they are destroyed by others they will be counted by the Lord, and will help you win salvation. But in verse 14 it refers to those who have works alone. They will receive a reward, just as anyone who does good deeds. Bottom line, we still need grace.

Quote:
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There is no question that James says that faith without works is dead. The point is that works are results of salvation, and not the cause as the RC claims.
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I think that they go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other. Faith without works isn't really faith. The idea that you don't have to walk the walk, is simply ludicrous on it's face, and certainly not scriptural.

The scriptures that some people are so fond of quoting about grace only, is a shallow perception of what the Lord really wants from us. We do need grace because of our imperfections. That doesn't mean we can sin in the morning and "repent" in the afternoon declaring Christ is our Savior and only by this shall be saved. By their fruits ye shall know them.

Here is your question if you choose to answer.

Are works necessary for justification? If so, what percentage of justification is brought about by works, and what percentage by faith?
Is salvation/justification some mixture of works and grace with faith?
This is the heart of the matter.

Jerry

The Catholic church most certainly doesn't teach that works alone will get you into heaven. I was raised a Catholic, went to Catholic schools, and had the Catechism drilled into me for a good number of years. I don't recall anyone ever hinting at such a thing. They were pretty darned clear on the point that charitable and other works are a necessary part of practicing the faith. A cursory examination of how Jesus lived, and what He taught, would seem to make that conclusion inescapable. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there are a number of Catholics--even amongst the clergy--who are unclear about this. I've known more than a handful who were confused as to whether Mary is some sort of godess, and as to how much importance one should place on statuary and the like. Church teaching on these things may impress some non-committal types as overly harsh and they seek to soften the landing.

The Catholic church teaches belief in in the Trinity, in Christ as God the Son, that Christ died for the sins of man, in the resurection, and in salvation through Christ. That strikes me as hitting all the marks of Christianity. I'm not all that well versed on the teachings of the LDS as there are not so many in my part of the country. The few that I've talked to, adhere to those things as well. That may make them lousy Mormons, but they would be surprised to learn that they are not Christians. I'll confess to some ignorance on that subject.

The Catholic church does indulge in some foofaraw, and they have advanced some non-scripturally-supported teachings. Those IMHO are details, and many (such as the existance of purgatory) have been hotly debated within the church. I get the distinct impression that the Catholic church is moving away from some of it. At least it appears that they are putting less emphasis on it. Seems to me, anyway. The Catholic church's position on Sacraments may not be directly supported by Scripture, but it is not entirely outlandish either.

Some anti-Catholic sentiment has been well earned. OTOH, there is a substantial number of self-described Christians who expend valuable time and energy cherrypicking snipets of Scripture and Catholic doctrine to support their anti-Catholic bigotry. I don't know any of the contributors on this board well enough to form any opinions about what is in your heart(s), so I'm not accusing anyone of anything. But be assured that I have seen a fair amount of that.

Whether you prefer your omelette rolled or folded, with cheese or without, as long as you use eggs as the main ingredient: it's still an omelette. A church that adheres to the main tenets of Christian faith is--by definition--Christian. The rest is mainly institutional minutae. Take it or leave it, as you like.

"The issue is what has God said, and whether or not Mormonism or RC conforms to His Word."

I believe the Catholics and the Mormons would disagree with you on that. Do they insult you?

What is the phrase about the beam in your own eye vs. the dust mote in someone else's?

You may not like their dorctrine exactly but, as wuzagrunt says, everyone makes the omeletts from the same basic ingredients.

Since the fundamentalists tend to ignore a lot of the Bible, or make up extra-Biblical rationalizations for those portions which do not conform to their own doctrines, they should not take a "holier than thou" attitude toward good people.

That's 180 degrees off. Even you should know better than to make a statement like that.

Fundamentalists see the Bible as the ONLY source of instruction and include all of it and disdain ANY extra-Biblical input regarding doctrine. That's what we so often get beat up for, by only utilizing Scripture and nothing else. 'Course that doesn't mean we don't have differences how some of the Scripture gets applied or what it means in light of other Scripture. Evidence these threads, to see that. How many times do you ever see a Brother quoting from any thing else but the Bible on here? Amost never. That is because it is our main, and mostly only, source.

That's not true of many denominations. Many have magazines and newsletters that are required reading for their flocks to read and understand. The Bible often comes in dead last to these other readings. These are not fundamentalists as they have left the fundamentals of Scripture or put them in second place. Some have even re-written the Bible itself to comply with their men-generated doctrines.

I have seen good intentions go awry, when men of faith do not temper their speech with love. The tongue is the hardest member of anyone's body to control and the most damaging. In that we all should evaluate where we stand and pupose to do better.

I am glad to see this yound man taking his first steps in faith. I pray he will come to a full and true understanding of his Savior and His purpose for his life.

well, wuzza, as long as your fine son knows the Son - and the Son alone - as his Savior, what else do we need to know right now?

Actually it's not 180 degrees off, based on what has been posted here, but that is a separate issue.

The Fundamentalists have no right to denounce someone else's choice of religion (realizing that you personally weren't the one who did it, RickyD.). They can read the Bible all they want, but their parents should have taught them how to be polite. It's like being invited to a wedding and complaining that one thinks the bride is ugly. It just isn't done in polite company.

Wazzagrunt,

Bless that young man's heart! Thanks for posting that picture. That is wonderful and I'm sure his experience will always be remembered as a stepping stone into the grace and knowledge of our God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus knows who are His.

Your boy has a bright future ahead of him, full of hope and fullfillment. I'm sure as he has commited his heart and life toward
the living God. God will take care of him, that hunger in your boys heart for the things of God came from above. It was not his own idea's and doing. Watch out! that boy of your's is going to take you for a spiritual ride. Hope you can hang on.

Congratulations!

wuzzagrunt,
[� A church that adheres to the main tenets of Christian faith is--by definition--Christian. The rest is mainly institutional minutae. Take it or leave it, as you like.�]

I agree, but the RC does not adhere to the main tenants of the Christian faith. I guess I need to repost some of their doctrine compared with the Bible.

Bible.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I fail to see how it could be clearer that salvation is NOT OF WORKS. There can be no admixture of grace and works in salvation/justification. Note Eph 2:9.

Now the Roman Catholic position from the Council of Trent.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

CANON III.--If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities; let him be anathema.

The differences between the Bible and RC doctrine is easily discerned.

The Bible says that salvation IS NOT OF WORKS. That it is wholly by grace through faith.

RC says that works are necessary for salvation, and that they truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life.. CANON XXXII

RC says that the sacraments are necessary unto salvation. CANON IV.-

RC says that salvation is through the RC church, and also that those who have not heard of Christ can also be saved if they are sincere and seek God based upon what they know.

335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337


But Christ said that He was the way and the only way to God.

It is so obvious that the RC doctrine contradicts the clear teaching of the Bible, and in the basics/fundamentals of the Christian faith. It is not Christian.

Jerry

I just went to the link wuzzagrunt provided where he asked for info on denominations and a Bible for his son who wanted to study it and be baptised. Interesting discussion there. I noted a couple guys really assualted Combineman when he stated he was a Mormon. A Mormon who believed in the Divinity of Jesus, but a Mormon, nonetheless. Now it's the Catholics turn in the barrel it would seem.

Those of you, no.................those of US who appear to enjoy lambasting anothers choice of denomination should consider if such tactics do the Kingdom of God any good. When have you ever told someone (who did not ask what you thought of their faith) that they were not Christian with the understood next conclusion that Hell awaits them, and they did not recoil? My guess is that they didn't ask you if they could come to your church the next Sunday. Ok! OK! I can hear it now! All the stories to prove me wrong. I don't care about that! The point is these kinds of posts are not coming through in love. I can't see Christ in these factoid barrages to prove the heretical nature of one denomination over another.

One thing not in our favor is the sterile face of forum postings. The little instant Graemlins help show when we are joking, but that's about all we have to let people know we might jest. Of course none of these posts are in jest. After reading some posts I sure wonder how that person gets through the day without getting his clocked cleaned. Few would ever confront another stranger about their faith in person the way it is done in here. At least few still alive! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The worst part is if it is not serving God, and my Spirit does not bear withness that it does, then it serves Satan. Satan wants divison in the Church most of all, and he has a pyramid marketing plan that makes the Ronco guy look like he's runnin' a Kool-aide stand. Don't help him!

I may (or may not) agree with your premise, facts, etc., etc., but such tactics are not working!!!! Even if one or two listen, what good is that if you turn many, many more away.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is true and powerful and the ONLY way to salvation. If a person can just get over themselves it works great and is easy to share. We need to share His Gospel but it has to be done as it was given: in love.

I'm not trying to pick on anyone but please consider this. Not for any other reason that if these confrontational tactics do not bear fruit then they are to be cut down and cast into the fire. I only want to see Him glorified and believe most of you do too. How many lives might have been touched if more felt "safe" to come in here and ask a question or participate without fear of being attacked for aspects of the denomination that they grew up in but might not even subscibe to? It gives me no pleasure posting this. Neither does it give me pleasure to have my Spirit grieved, so ya get the post.

Lord Help Us!!

Lord help me!!!

" noted a couple guys really assualted Combineman when he stated he was a Mormon. A Mormon who believed in the Divinity of Jesus, but a Mormon, nonetheless."

I am one of those guys and Ricky, Mormonism is not a denomination, Its a abomination.

Ricky, you need to study up some more before you wade into this converstation. Mormonism has its own jesus and its not the real Jesus. Ignorance is not bliss.


I suggest jmartin, tell our host and catholic, Rick Bin that he is not a Christian as well.

Maybe jmartin shouldnt post on this particular forum, God forbid he get his hands dirty posting on a non-Christian hosted forum.

This is getting to be ridiculous, I have not posted here in a while, now I remember why. Same ole' dumbing down.

see ya

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The Bible says that salvation IS NOT OF WORKS.

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Simply not true.

Many passages imply that works are necessary, and I've quoted some. Problem really is that some people only believe what they want, and no one is going to convince them otherwise. It's impossible to fully understand the word of the Lord by ignoring passages that contadict what one wants to believe! Only by understanding the scriptures as a whole can one arrive at the truth. I've tried to point to some of the contradictions on this and other threads, but only those with open minds listen.