Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting is there an explanation for deer vs. berger?

earlier this week i finally was able to close the deal on a fantastic whitetail.

i stalked to 200 yards and fired my 7 rem mag running berger 168 hunting vld's at about 2900 f/s at the muzzle. the deer was at a severe downhill, so i took the shot at his neck-shoulder juncture from above and behind.

at the shot his head snapped back severely and he dropped immediately. he thrashed for 1-2 seconds and then was still. it took me about 10-15 minutes to get to him, and when i got there he was laying as dead bucks do - one side of his rack in the dirt, the other side up in the air, and he was on his side. however, he was breathing, and while it was rapid, it appeared mostly normal (not shallow). i decided to put a finisher in him. just as i mounted my rifle, the buck got to his feet, took 2 quick bounds straight away from me, then turned to face me. he had a very aggressive stance like whitetails do before they start fighting (so much for all the jokes about charging whitetails). i found his chest in my scope and hammered him in the chest at about 3-4 yards, dropping him again.

this was my first experience w/ berger bullets; i had decided to try them after they had received so much positive press on the internet. it was also my first experience w/ a deer regaining his feet after he went down so hard and so fast.

when i opened the deer up his chest cavity was full of blood. my 2nd shot had tore his heart up and completely destroyed 1 lung. the other was in rough shape (quartering-to shot), but appeared intact. i was unable to find where my first shot had accomplished anything.

this experience has shaken my confidence in the bergers - but i have to wonder if this was a case of hunter-error in that i should not have taken that first shot at the heavy backbone?

thanks for any input - i'm a little puzzled, and am thinking i should probably stick to 'softer' shots (ie ribcage) if i want to run bergers. thoughts?

Re-think Bergers as a game boolit...


( there..that oughta light some of these guys up, while I exit.....stage left... )

Nah. If he hit just the right (wrong?) spot/angle to glance off a Berger, than it's likely a pointed bullet from another make would glance off as well.

so you think the bullet performance was a freak occurence?

Where did you actually hit with the first shot?

Ive shot 2 bucks this year with a Berger 168 from a 7wsm at 2980.

First one was right at 202 yards. Broadside shot. Shot him square in the shoulder(on purpose). Bullet did not exit. Deer ran @ 20 yards. Massive internal damage... and his antlers fell off:)
There was not a drop of blood, even where he fell.
You are looking at the exit side.




Second buck was at 236, again broadside. Decided to punch him behind the shoulder and check results. I hit him about an inch below the spine...my bad.
Hit a rib in and a rib out, puncturing both lungs. Deer ran @ 60 yards. Exit hole was 1 1/4".



Entrance left, exit right.


Shot a big doe last year with a 190 from a 300RUM, 96 yards behind the shoulder, quartering away slightly. She hit the dirt and the exit spray was impressive. Hit a rib in and shoulder out.

I would be leery of another shoulder shot. The bullet is designed to penetrate 2-3 inches then "blow up". Behind the shoulder is where I will poke them from now on...as long as I use them.

i havent tried berger's but i know my TTSX's will not fail to penetrate so why switch

Big Time - I know from experience that the Bergers will slice through a shoulder blade, or two, with ease, but I'm not so sure about bigger bones. I've taken three mule deer with them so far, all 115's from my .25-06, from 175 - 400 yards. All were quick drops, but I'm still leery of anything but a chest/shoulder-blade shot with them.

Seems your whitetail hunt got a little spicy there at the end!

Regards, Guy

I'm not sold on Berger bullets for hunting, but that's not the issue. I would probably analize your shot choice and placement more than I would bullet performance. Things happen in the field that sometimes just can't be explained. Nice job on the follow up.

I can imagine what was said once the buck was down for good. Your buddy says, "Whoah, he stinks! He must be in the rut." Your response was, "nope, that'd be my shorts!"

I'd bet that a TTSX or TSX would have given different results. Its a go to bullet when you need NO failures and the most penetration you can get.

You'll know more once you get the hide off,but,based on you descrption of the shot(aiming at the neck/shoulder junction),the angle(downhill,steeply and from behind),the distance(200 yards;don't know how you were zeroed but the bullet would have reached the apex of mid-range,exacerbated by the steep downhill angle);sounds to me like the bullet either:

a)struck to the side of the neck vertabrae,not breaking it, but stunning him so he collpased),or,

b)the bullet busted up on the vertabrae with out breaking it.Less likely I would guess but it does happen.

The circumstances indicate to me the shot would have been "high",or too far forward of your aiming point due to mid range trajectory and downhill angle, from your position,and aiming at the neck/shoulder junction caused the bullet to impact forward of the chest cavity, never getting inside.

In any event the results were the same;the neck not broken, we know because he got to his feet,only stunned for the moment but he came to to challenge you.That stuff happens on neck shots that fail to break the spine.

I'm not sure another bullet would have mattered,unless the neck was impacted directly and the bullet in fact broke up.

I could be wrong on all of this and base what I said on your description of the shot.

Glad you got him anyway and am certain he's a really nice buck!

What breed of Deer is the spotted one?


Are those his horns in the upper left corner, if so looks like you blew them off....lol


Allen

Axis deer.

I did not see him fall but that is how I found him. The antlers were attached when I pulled the trigger. They popped off right out of the pedicle. Close to shedding I suppose.

+1....

Nice exit hole from Berger shown here.

I call that a cape ruiner hole in my books! Shame on such a nice buck too.

Bob, I actually have seen a bullet come apart on the spine in the neck... 300wtby, 180 partition( another reason I got rid of them junkers) at about 125 ish yards. all I had was neck and head for a target. Bang flop... get up there and the buck is WIDE alive, and paralized.... stabbed him with my pocket knife to kill him to save what was left of the cape....

Any who... cleaning him we found what was left of the bullet, and some frags, and it was actually a fair amount of bullet, sitting against the bone of the neck. Must have snapped it, but never totally broke through at all. Bullets do weird things unless they are barnes... IMHO.

Jeff: Wow! I have not had that happen,nor seen it myself but folks who have had experiences like yours have told me the same,but with other bullets.

It seems those necks are pretty tough on many BG animals.After that experience I can understand your fondness for the Barnes.

I think if you use lighter jacketed bullets on game, you run the risk of erratic performance if you have a change in shot placement from perfect. I think the true game bullets do give you a margin of error. That said, if you hit any animal in a non-lethal spot with any bullet/cartridge, you may end up with problems.

I shot a 160lb 8pt 2 weeks ago with a 140grn .284 VLD @ 130yds (3175fps MV). The buck was nearly broad side and placement was in the pocket behind the onside shoulder. Nothing but shrapnel made it to the off side, no exit wound. No blood at all and you would know he ran into a dense thicket. After circling the area produced nothing, I went back to the impact and followed his tracks through the pine straw a ways when I caught a whiff of him(in rut), made a short circle and there he lay. Tiny entrance hole and still no blood near where he fell. I'd killed a small whitetail yearling and a buck antelope prior to with them with descent results, but don't think I want to chance them again, especially on a larger bodied animal.

Back to 150NBTs on smaller animals and 140-160ABs on the bigger stuff in that rig

Have a good one,

loder

You guys can take this for what it's worth; makes no difference to me one way or the other! I made my own .30 caliber bullets for shooting NRA HP Competition for many years and sold them commercially also. I used J-4 jackets which were pretty consistent in wall thickness. I never knew of any jackets that J-4 made that were 'thicker'; all at that time were the same dimension. Now...with that being said.....Berger Bullets claims that their target bullets have thicker jackets to withstand the rigors of various calibers and rates of twist in target rifles. Maybe so....???? Being both a shooter and hunter I was interested in how my .30 caliber bullets would perform on game and over a two year period I shot 7 whitetail bucks with various weight bullets ranging from 150 gr. up to 200 grs. Most shots were broadside shots either on the shoulder or slightly behind (ranging from 80 yards out to 260 yards) and after careful examination I NEVER discovered/recovered a bullet; only fragments thereof and none of the shots produced exit wounds!! Bullets I used were both secant and tangent ogive, lead-cored jacketed HP. I know that some guys claim fantastic results using the Berger bullets for hunting but IMO....a lead-cored jacketed HP bullet IS NOT the best way to go for choosing a hunting bullet! There are several good hunting bullets in various calibers on the market and I have had great success using them on elk, mulies, and whitetails! Good penetration, exit wounds on most occasions, and on a few shots taken into the animals chest the bullet was found in the rear ham with good mushroom effect and weight retention and that's what I want for a hunting bullet rather than a bullet that renders total fragmentation!!

FWIW!!